Wildcard Buries Head In Sand !!!!!!!

[BobRoss]

8 minutes ago, Kallor said:

No, it should behave consistently with every other dino in PvE.

there are other dinos that can damage structures in PVE 

[Kallor]

2 minutes ago, MisbegottenAngel said:

Now the hard part... can they fix this issue without destroying other aspects of pve? Probably not.

Of course they can, all they need to do is make it use the same code as everything else.  The question is why they made it different to begin with.  Is cut and paste really that hard?  They got the Allo spawns wrong for months when they already had viable spawn code, so they have a history of writing new code for things that don't need it and getting it wrong.

[Kallor]

Just now, BobRoss said:

there are other dinos that can damage structures in PVE 

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Every dino can damage structures, IF I or one of my dinos has done something to aggro the wild dino first.  But that's not the situation we are talking about and you know it.

[eswimm]

1 minute ago, BobRoss said:

so, in theory you would want to rock golem to only damage stone tier when it hurls rocks at it? 

No, I want rock golems to follow the same engagement rules as every other dino in the game.  Any other dino when dragged to a different player's structure does absolutely no damage to that structure when it attacks the kiting player.

Golem rock throws do not follow that same rule, the rocks will damage structures regardless of owner.  I have no issues with golems destroying stone as long as they follow the rules that every other dino does, so they can't be abused by players.

If I assume for a moment that you aren't just here to argue because you like to kite golems through people's bases, perhaps the problem is you don't understand the means by which they are being abused.

My base is surrounded by a 12 metal pillar high wall, spaced 1 foundation apart.  On top of that wall, are metal spikes touching end to end.  The only entrances/exits are metal behemoth gates.  Inside that wall, my base is supported entirely by metal pillars/ceilings, but the majority of the structure alternates rows of metal and adobe, mainly because I'd already spent 200,000 metal ingots replacing half of it with metal.  The entire outer circumference of the 1st floor is vaults, to provide a buffer from splash damage should the alternating adobe layers be destroyed.

I still had to sit by and watch a hostile tribe completely wipe out several other tribes who had somehow offended them (due to a language barrier I assume), because I was still not safe from retribution.  That tribe exploited a ramp mounted on a quetzal to lift golems over walls and drop them on top of bases where they could exploit the flawed damage mechanic of stone throws to break through the base and deal splash damage to dinos inside.

If my base, with 200,000 ingots invested is still vulnerable to a determined kiter, what chance do new players without the same level of resources have?

[BobRoss]

4 minutes ago, Kallor said:

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Every dino can damage structures, IF I or one of my dinos has done something to aggro the wild dino first.  But that's not the situation we are talking about and you know it.

not so long ago i tested this by standing onto an other players foundation while a rex attacked me and the foundation took damage. is it different because i stood directly on top of it? maybe, i will test this out again soon. but for now THAT is my personal experience with wild dinos and their damage. 

it could be that i am wrong and this no longer applies but until i see it with my own eyes i have to just take your word for it?

[BobRoss]

5 minutes ago, eswimm said:

No, I want rock golems to follow the same engagement rules as every other dino in the game.  Any other dino when dragged to a different player's structure does absolutely no damage to that structure when it attacks the kiting player.

Golem rock throws do not follow that same rule, the rocks will damage structures regardless of owner.  I have no issues with golems destroying stone as long as they follow the rules that every other dino does, so they can't be abused by players.

If I assume for a moment that you aren't just here to argue because you like to kite golems through people's bases, perhaps the problem is you don't understand the means by which they are being abused.

My base is surrounded by a 12 metal pillar high wall, spaced 1 foundation apart.  On top of that wall, are metal spikes touching end to end.  The only entrances/exits are metal behemoth gates.  Inside that wall, my base is supported entirely by metal pillars/ceilings, but the majority of the structure alternates rows of metal and adobe, mainly because I'd already spent 200,000 metal ingots replacing half of it with metal.  The entire outer circumference of the 1st floor is vaults, to provide a buffer from splash damage should the alternating adobe layers be destroyed.

I still had to sit by and watch a hostile tribe completely wipe out several other tribes who had somehow offended them (due to a language barrier I assume), because I was still not safe from retribution.  That tribe exploited a ramp mounted on a quetzal to lift golems over walls and drop them on top of bases where they could exploit the flawed damage mechanic of stone throws to break through the base and deal splash damage to dinos inside.

If my base, with 200,000 ingots invested is still vulnerable to a determined kiter, what chance do new players without the same level of resources have?

ill give you the same response i gave @Kallor, in my personal experience, not so long ago, i found out there is still a difference between standing on the structures or running past them as a dino attacks them. i found out that when you stand directly on top of them they still take damage. same goes for dinos. 

I dont like griefers and i would never resort to using things like this to destroy other peoples work on PVE servers but with the information i have and i gathered myself i only see these mechanics as part of the game. if that is not the case then i am wrong and WC needs to patch them out. but if that was the case then why havent they done that already? i cannot imagine it to be so hard? if a chalico throw doesnt hurt your base (as you suggest) then why would a rock golems throw be different? unles it is meant to be this way and another solution is the way to go.

 

[eswimm]

Just now, BobRoss said:

not so long ago i tested this by standing onto an other players foundation while a rex attacked me and the foundation took damage. is it different because i stood directly on top of it? maybe, i will test this out again soon. but for now THAT is my personal experience with wild dinos and their damage. 

it could be that i am wrong and this no longer applies but until i see it with my own eyes i have to just take your word for it?

That's absolutely not the case now.  If I go out and decide that somebody's stone pillar offends me and I'm going to exploit a golem to destroy it, there's only one way to do it.

If I take out my tamed golem, go find a wild golem and then stand directly on top of that pillar while the wild golem beats on me, that pillar will take no damage at all, no matter how long I stand there.

Now, if I hop off my golem and run that wild golem around in circles from a distance while it throws rocks at me, every one of those rocks that connects with the pillar will deal damage.  If I get bored and stop running that golem around in circles and leave, the golem will give up, since it has never aggroed on the pillar and has no reason to do so.

Destroying somebody's base via wild golem is a task that requires deliberate effort.  Wild dinos don't aggro on structures without a reason to.

[BobRoss]

2 minutes ago, eswimm said:

That's absolutely not the case now.  If I go out and decide that somebody's stone pillar offends me and I'm going to exploit a golem to destroy it, there's only one way to do it.

If I take out my tamed golem, go find a wild golem and then stand directly on top of that pillar while the wild golem beats on me, that pillar will take no damage at all, no matter how long I stand there.

Now, if I hop off my golem and run that wild golem around in circles from a distance while it throws rocks at me, every one of those rocks that connects with the pillar will deal damage.  If I get bored and stop running that golem around in circles and leave, the golem will give up, since it has never aggroed on the pillar and has no reason to do so.

Destroying somebody's base via wild golem is a task that requires deliberate effort.  Wild dinos don't aggro on structures without a reason to.

can you explain this then,

a couple days ago, i found next to my base a carno and a raptor muching on my stone pillars, they werent damaging them because they arent supposed to, but the thatch ceiling that was put on top of those pillars was destroyed. I myself hadnt been online for over 3 days.

im curious towards your explanation. 

[eswimm]

2 minutes ago, BobRoss said:

ill give you the same response i gave @Kallor, in my personal experience, not so long ago, i found out there is still a difference between standing on the structures or running past them as a dino attacks them. i found out that when you stand directly on top of them they still take damage. same goes for dinos. 

I dont like griefers and i would never resort to using things like this to destroy other peoples work on PVE servers but with the information i have and i gathered myself i only see these mechanics as part of the game. if that is not the case then i am wrong and WC needs to patch them out. but if that was the case then why havent they done that already? i cannot imagine it to be so hard? if a chalico throw doesnt hurt your base (as you suggest) then why would a rock golems throw be different? unles it is meant to be this way and another solution is the way to go.

 

Given that ranged attacks of that nature were something new (I believe) to rock elementals, it's possible that Chalico projectiles act the same way, but since they don't do as much damage or damage stone that it's not practical to exploit them in the same fashion.

[Kallor]

1 minute ago, BobRoss said:

can you explain this then,

a couple days ago, i found next to my base a carno and a raptor muching on my stone pillars, they werent damaging them because they arent supposed to, but the thatch ceiling that was put on top of those pillars was destroyed. I myself hadnt been online for over 3 days.

im curious towards your explanation. 

They are standing near your base but the zone was unloaded so all the structures aren't visible.  You loaded into your base and they went active before your structures were visible, spotted one of your tames and "aggroed".  The structures loaded in so they couldn't get to your tames, but they had been triggered by seeing your tames so attacked and wiped out your thatch.

[eswimm]

9 minutes ago, BobRoss said:

can you explain this then,

a couple days ago, i found next to my base a carno and a raptor muching on my stone pillars, they werent damaging them because they arent supposed to, but the thatch ceiling that was put on top of those pillars was destroyed. I myself hadnt been online for over 3 days.

im curious towards your explanation. 

It aggroed your structure for some reason.  The most common reason is usually that the dino got stuck on your structure somehow, assuming there wasn't a tasty dino on the other side to draw its attention.

Odds are another player was involved, since wild dinos in stasis don't attack.  Another player would have had it rendered for it to be munching on your base.

[GP]

5 hours ago, BobRoss said:

agree to disagree, as long as its not a player owned creature or player itself that kills the base its still destruction caused by a wild creature and a mechanic used by wild creatures therefor in my eyes the environment. there is nothing a player can do that a wild dino couldnt do by itself. 

I can certainly agree to disagree, but I am curious.

I find it difficult how in a Player vs Environment scenario that you can ignore the fact another player has had a big involvement in getting a wild dino to attack another player. This to me sounds like PvEvP which is not PvE and is certainly closer to PvP.

Yes the wild dino is doing exactly what it would do if it just stumbled upon the player base, under certain conditions, but let me put it this way. I have a base that has a perimeter containing walls that are 6 walls higher all the way around with a behemoth gate. Doesn't matter whether the walls are stone, metal or tek, the fact that the perimeter is 6 walls high, if a wild dino of any kind giga, golem, dodorex walks past my base it will not agro, why? Because it cannot see my tames to agro to, nor can is see me. That is how a natural wild dino would act.

Now, you throw a human player in to the mix, the player lures the giga, golem, dodorex to the other players base and gets that dino attacking the walls of the base. That dino successfully knocks down a coloum of walls and all hell breaks lose with the dinos inside the base. Is the wild dino acting how it would normally act? No, because it would not agro if no other player was involved.

So how is that more PvE than PvP?

[BobRoss]

2 hours ago, GP said:

I can certainly agree to disagree, but I am curious.

I find it difficult how in a Player vs Environment scenario that you can ignore the fact another player has had a big involvement in getting a wild dino to attack another player. This to me sounds like PvEvP which is not PvE and is certainly closer to PvP.

Yes the wild dino is doing exactly what it would do if it just stumbled upon the player base, under certain conditions, but let me put it this way. I have a base that has a perimeter containing walls that are 6 walls higher all the way around with a behemoth gate. Doesn't matter whether the walls are stone, metal or tek, the fact that the perimeter is 6 walls high, if a wild dino of any kind giga, golem, dodorex walks past my base it will not agro, why? Because it cannot see my tames to agro to, nor can is see me. That is how a natural wild dino would act.

Now, you throw a human player in to the mix, the player lures the giga, golem, dodorex to the other players base and gets that dino attacking the walls of the base. That dino successfully knocks down a coloum of walls and all hell breaks lose with the dinos inside the base. Is the wild dino acting how it would normally act? No, because it would not agro if no other player was involved.

So how is that more PvE than PvP?

to me its more PVE because the reason your base is destroyed is because of a wild dino. to me that is more PVE than PVP, that is totally subjective tho and other will probably find this more of a PVP thing. 

for me its only PVP if its destruction or damage caused by a players actions or player owned unit. when there is some environmental medium between the player and the destruction, here being a golem, its not PVP for me

[BobRoss]

2 hours ago, eswimm said:

It aggroed your structure for some reason.  The most common reason is usually that the dino got stuck on your structure somehow, assuming there wasn't a tasty dino on the other side to draw its attention.

Odds are another player was involved, since wild dinos in stasis don't attack.  Another player would have had it rendered for it to be munching on your base.

so now youre saying it IS possible for a wild dino to kill my structures even when im not around while you just said that was impossible, or am i missing something?

[BobRoss]

2 hours ago, Kallor said:

They are standing near your base but the zone was unloaded so all the structures aren't visible.  You loaded into your base and they went active before your structures were visible, spotted one of your tames and "aggroed".  The structures loaded in so they couldn't get to your tames, but they had been triggered by seeing your tames so attacked and wiped out your thatch.

there were no dinos of mine nearby, only pillars of stone and ceilings of thatch

[eswimm]

7 minutes ago, BobRoss said:

so now youre saying it IS possible for a wild dino to kill my structures even when im not around while you just said that was impossible, or am i missing something?

I never said anything of the sort.  I said that aggroing a wild dino and walking up next to somebody's structure won't damage it or under most circumstances cause the wild dino to aggro the structure.

There are situations where a wild dino will aggro on your structures and damage them.  They include things like seeing a tasty dino behind a wall, through a crack or open window; getting stuck; spawning inside and not having a way out.

Each of those situations still only happen when somebody is in render range of your structures, but those are true PvE issues.

Wild golems are a legitimate PvE risk on SE that people need to be prepared for.

The blurring of the lines between PvP and PvE comes when a player is deliberately using a wild golem against you, by making it do things it wouldn't normally do.

[BobRoss]

26 minutes ago, eswimm said:

I never said anything of the sort.  I said that aggroing a wild dino and walking up next to somebody's structure won't damage it or under most circumstances cause the wild dino to aggro the structure.

There are situations where a wild dino will aggro on your structures and damage them.  They include things like seeing a tasty dino behind a wall, through a crack or open window; getting stuck; spawning inside and not having a way out.

Each of those situations still only happen when somebody is in render range of your structures, but those are true PvE issues.

Wild golems are a legitimate PvE risk on SE that people need to be prepared for.

The blurring of the lines between PvP and PvE comes when a player is deliberately using a wild golem against you, by making it do things it wouldn't normally do.

so in fact there are natural ways for golems to aggro onto your base, as long as a player is nearby, ill intended or by accident? 

well if thats the case im going to stick with my first opinion and say that you need to be prepared for the worst case scenario, pve or pvp>  

[wildbill]

2 hours ago, BobRoss said:

so in fact there are natural ways for golems to aggro onto your base, as long as a player is nearby, ill intended or by accident? 

well if thats the case im going to stick with my first opinion and say that you need to be prepared for the worst case scenario, pve or pvp>  

Yes, a wild rock elemental can aggro to a dino in a base, but then it would have to move near enough to the base, and normally they never move. Also you would have to have a dino in your base not on passive. Your dino would need to be within aggro range, etc., etc. So many conditions need to be met for this to happen in a PVE situation, that it almost never happens.

BUT, a player can kite the rock elemental to your base (PVP) and completely destroy it if he has the time and skill, and he doesn't need any of your dinos to not be on passive, he doesn't need any conditions except the rock elemental, the desire, and be able to lure it close enough to any non-metal structure.

So you figure out the most likely scenario where you base is destroyed by a rock elemental (hint: probably not the PVE scenario).

[ducttapefixeseverything]

I know this much too. Wild dinos WILL aggro to structures. Or maybe it is just mosas. But, a player will have to be present.

I built a stone pillar trap for mosas, massive gated trap thirty pillars high. Way overkill, but it allows for easy icthy kiting into the trap of mosas.

Mosas cannot damage stone. But it does not stop them from attacking it.

Many times a mosa will be near to KO, turn to run, hit the far gate, and then start biting it.

100 yards from the player tranking it.

Now, that may not be enough to convince people.

But, we had an incident while attempting a tame where a 145 alpha mosa attacked the stone behemoth gate with people inside the trap with a KO mosa. We all fled, out of the far side on icthys, abandoning the tame because icthys could not fight it.

Alpha was derendered for several minutes while we brought the alpha mosa hunting squad of mosas back to kill it and hope for the best. We approached the back side of the trap, and, as soon as the alpha rendered in, it hit the gate again and shattered it. It stopped attacking, turned, and started to swim away. After about five seconds of swimming it altered course and we fought it. The tame was untouched, and is now our HP mosa for breeding.

Point is, on unusual occasions, it does appear that creatures will attack structures. The fact that it ignored the unconscious mosa shows that it was not after it, the AI just got confused and continued attacking a gate. We booked it away from the trap within twenty seconds of it appearing, and then it was derendered. Three minutes later, we were back in time to see the gate collapse. It had to have been biting the gate the whole time we were gone.

I don't know how it works like that, but I know it does. Someone may have figured out how to abuse that as a glitch in PVE.

Or maybe mosas are just full blown psychotic..

 

[Guest BubbaCrawfish]

7 hours ago, Kallor said:

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Every dino can damage structures, IF I or one of my dinos has done something to aggro the wild dino first.  But that's not the situation we are talking about and you know it.

That's why I bailed on this thread, it became obvious by the 3rd reply of "I know this won't be liked" that they were simply reiterating, over and over their "opinion" to rile people up.

[Kaoslion]

Dino's will get an aggro from a player and then immediately attack players structure. It happens to my pillar's from time to time. 

[DESTROYER]

11 hours ago, BobRoss said:

yes it is a sad and scummy move and i believe there should be things in the game to stop this but i dont see this as actual PVP, as you just said it yourself its a wild dino controlled by an AI

How would you categories this if I kite a giga to someone's base in PvP is it my fault or is it simply a wild dino controlled by an AI.

[wildbill]

1 hour ago, ducttapefixeseverything said:

I know this much too. Wild dinos WILL aggro to structures. Or maybe it is just mosas. But, a player will have to be present.

I built a stone pillar trap for mosas, massive gated trap thirty pillars high. Way overkill, but it allows for easy icthy kiting into the trap of mosas.

Mosas cannot damage stone. But it does not stop them from attacking it.

Many times a mosa will be near to KO, turn to run, hit the far gate, and then start biting it.

100 yards from the player tranking it.

Now, that may not be enough to convince people.

But, we had an incident while attempting a tame where a 145 alpha mosa attacked the stone behemoth gate with people inside the trap with a KO mosa. We all fled, out of the far side on icthys, abandoning the tame because icthys could not fight it.

Alpha was derendered for several minutes while we brought the alpha mosa hunting squad of mosas back to kill it and hope for the best. We approached the back side of the trap, and, as soon as the alpha rendered in, it hit the gate again and shattered it. It stopped attacking, turned, and started to swim away. After about five seconds of swimming it altered course and we fought it. The tame was untouched, and is now our HP mosa for breeding.

Point is, on unusual occasions, it does appear that creatures will attack structures. The fact that it ignored the unconscious mosa shows that it was not after it, the AI just got confused and continued attacking a gate. We booked it away from the trap within twenty seconds of it appearing, and then it was derendered. Three minutes later, we were back in time to see the gate collapse. It had to have been biting the gate the whole time we were gone.

I don't know how it works like that, but I know it does. Someone may have figured out how to abuse that as a glitch in PVE.

Or maybe mosas are just full blown psychotic..

 

This is very basic to how aggro works in ARK. If you aggro a dino to yourself, it is not just aggro'd to your character, but to every building you own also, and every dino you own.

So you aggro'd the Mosa to you by shooting it with tranq darts, now it has a range where it can attack, the gate was in its range, so it attacked it.

If you had never aggro'd the Mosa to begin with, it would not attack the gate. 

The mechanic that they need to fix, is that one player (lets call them the griefer), aggros the Rock Elemental to them, and then when the Rock Elemental uses its throw rock attack, it hits other things (someone's base), and the rocks destroy the base, which is something it is not aggro'd on. If the griefer leaves the area, the Rock Elemental will not be aggro'd on the base unless in the process of attacking it, a dino in there is not on passive and attacks back, then it can become aggro'd to the base and everything in it.

Really is pretty simple.

[ducttapefixeseverything]

Alpha mosa continued to damage structures, even derendered. That was the main takeaway from this. Wilds go into stasis when not rendered in. Except them I suppose? That is why I was saying there may be a griefer known mechanic to kiting dinos and leaving them aggroed on your structures with no one around.

[Kallor]

6 hours ago, BobRoss said:

for me its only PVP if its destruction or damage caused by a players actions or player owned unit. when there is some environmental medium between the player and the destruction, here being a golem, its not PVP for me

I can shoot a rocket at a wall and destroy it, I can use a rock golem to throw a rock and destroy the same wall.  Both the rocket launcher and golem are tools used by a player to destroy another players structures. PvP.  You don't blame the tools used, you blame who caused the action.