Mega Thread: Flyer Rebalance - Thoughts and Feedback.

[JesterSuave]

I think the problem is people are trying to do what they once did in the same way, but with nerfed fliers. So obviously it greatly affects your efficiency.

I can't recommend enough to all players who join my server the importance of beds. Now with the Tek Teleporter coming around it'll make that even easier (should you be so skilled as to obtain it).

You cannot beat instantaneous travel no matter what. So yes, now my trip to the volcano, which still produces several thousand metal, has gone from a 3 min flight to a 15 min flight. Only thing this patch made me do was plan more prior to crafting

Having said that, I do agree with the above posts talking about how the Dossiers and the dinos should match.  I think the Quetz needs more stam, or a reduction in stam drain to make it that long hauler, and the Ptera should be noticeably faster, but able to carry very little. 

Honestly right now the Pelagornis is the best flyer imo lol.

@Jat

[Zederia]

1 minute ago, pwellsua5645 said:

Be a man scout with rexes

"Be a man use a dino for what it was never intended"

I can land scout with wolves. that's not the point

[Khadez]

The nerf was needed most of all know that.

Cap speed, 
Teranodons. Make it fast. 180% dont let it pick up anything, and low health and low Dmg, keep the Barrel roll CD. Add a bit of weightits painfull. And get all the stamina back to them.

Argents SLower than Teradons i would cap it 140%  and and give back the stamina lost. So they can be usefull

Quetz Cap them at 140% speed  and give them all stamina Back, and dont let them get big tames on that. Medium Poop and down keep the weight ratio 1:1 u cant mine 10k metal thats not ok. but let us farm 3-4k metal and get to our bases. Maybe dont let stamina back if u dismount but i dont want them to lose stamina if im not driving or flying or unmount it.

Dragons: Keep them slow but get them all the stamina back attacks works on Stam a 500 stam dragon can ttack once its crazy!

Add 10% speed cap for imprinted it Birds. 

Lets us Pick up the vaults at least once with the shrinking there is a lot of wasted space. 

And no offense but 28 hours of hand feeding for mossa that can be kill by 5 Jellys and 1 eel lvl all of the lvl 5 its nonesnse.

[Probitas]

6 minutes ago, Zederia said:

"Be a man use a dino for what it was never intended"

I can land scout with wolves. that's not the point

It's not the point, the point is he is attempting to make his way of thinking more valid, when this is a game and his preferred way of playing is not applicable to the rest of the community, it is only applicable to him. When the logic of the problem suggests removing the problem will fix the issue without harming the most people, why they have not done that is insane. I'd much rather a bunch of alpha tribes with too much time on their hands find their pets are no longer lvl 400 with insane stats than have the majority of gamers have flyers in wheelchairs. Which makes more sense to do? I see the breeding as broken and abused, turn it off and rework it or remove it entirely, dump all the dinos past the max possible level in vanilla with training and kibble taming, and that solves both rendering issues and pvp problems. But only angers the crazy breeders, who I am sure are a much smaller subset of the entire player base.

Shouldn't both WC and those breeders accept that it must be done to make the game better, like they are asking the rest of us to accept this heavy handed mallet to the face?

[Irkalla]

1 hour ago, NEWMFIN said:

All I really want is an ini config line and a timeline on when to expect one if it's coming.

 

 

This.  

[Zederia]

1 minute ago, Probitas said:

 I see the breeding as broken and abused, turn it off and rework it or remove it entirely, dump all the dinos past the max possible level in vanilla with training and kibble taming, and that solves both rendering issues and pvp problems.

I can run into the midst of turrets before they load, on foot. so should player speed be nerfed too?

[s3aHaWKS]

27 minutes ago, Probitas said:

All flyers lose stamina when mounted/rode in the air.

So i can't sleep in my Quetz anymore? :'(

[Parth311]

28 minutes ago, szabiferi said:

With all respect @Jat stop playing elusive and delaying tactics with this "mega thread" methodology. Its obvious no one will take seriously any comments in a topic with thousands of comments, rage, dueling.

Your minions already created this on steam, and you got more than enough responses: http://steamcommunity.com/app/346110/discussions/0/133261369999498057/

Right now it has 4665 comments, what else do you need? 

Please treat us as a customers - I know its hard because lots of us raging by now... but that's not our fault, we got no proper forum and we feel no one listens. Say something specific what we can use, not just generic meaningless marketing BS asking for patience.

You had all the time you wanted to design this patch, no one held a gun to your head to nerf the birds without any proper research. Still you did it, retrospectively ruining the players "work". Lots of hours of grinding got annihilated. It's natural we would like to see something specific. 

This is the best post iv seen all day so truu 

[Probitas]

2 minutes ago, Zederia said:

I can run into the midst of turrets before they load, on foot. so should player speed be nerfed too?

Technically, if the game cannot handle the job properly, then yes.

I guess this is what happens when you monkey around with code without using a proper analysis of possible future events.

[ncola7]

37 minutes ago, pwellsua5645 said:

Will be a fun change to use my bred brontos for all their weight. Imprinted for speed, now lets getterdone!

What was stopping you from doing this before?

[Evolvei]

What makes ARK amazing instead of simply great is the decision in development to have a lot of options.

I vote ini options for single player and unofficial servers for customers that choose to enjoy ARK their own way. 

[Zederia]

Just now, Probitas said:

Technically, if the game cannot handle the job properly, then yes.

I guess this is what happens when you monkey around with code without using a proper analysis of future events.

just shows the rendering on their side is flawed. I can do 60 fps on epic, and the rendering engine can't handle a little speed

[EZWalk]

Way too much! Maybe add a cap to things like stamina, speed, health... but NO increase for movement speed, WAY less stamina and increased stamina recharge times make the game much worse. Please undo.

[Marcchillin]

I used to play with quetzal bases, even found a way to anchor them in the air so they wouldn't land and could stay in flight when over a dangerous area, well this nerf killed that, quetzal bases no longer seem very fun to use. To be honest I would rather see this as an optional server configuration. When this patch falls on Xbox I'll no longer feel the need to keep the server up. I play with mostly avian dinos, one of my friends plays mostly with water dinos, and another mostly land. Well now I get no bird base because it is pointless to move around the map. When tek came out I was excited to use the jet pack to get to my flying base and back to the ground, well I got to enjoy the tek tier my way for a few weeks now I don't feel the need to play, my favorite parts of the game have been ripped out of it, if this was only a pvp option I would change my server in a heartbeat. Overall the change only benefits a small group of players and most of whom just started playing the game. The change has created a mass amount of hostility and Dino deaths from players who have been breeding and taming spicific stats forever just to have their prized dinos die from stamina or speed impudence. Quetzals shouldn't have to land, taking that trait away from them made me sick. Why the hell take away the one trait that made a bird base so awesome. Stamina regen in air was ingenious to its design and now it is nothing more then a falling sloth. This is my last comment on the subject, because you will do what you want after all we can't expect much. This thread is mostly formality as far as I can see, and till I hear rumor that the problem (yes problem) is fixed I don't need to promote this product among my friends. Worst patch ever, even more so then when vampires and werewolves didn't arrive the night of drop on the FE2 event. Sorry if this comes of hostile but buy us some dinner before you screw us, it's the gentlemanly thing to do.

[MurderHobo]

If you Wildcard guys have learned nothing out of this, I guess you now know that there is no way to balance flyers.  It's like trying to balance rifles vs. swords.  Air superiority rules the battlefield and it has since the aircraft carrier killed the battleship.  You're trying to balance something that was developed to trump what came before.

Flying is preferable to slogging across country just like a sniper rifle is preferable to a battleaxe.  There is no mechanical 'balance' for air superiority.  You can do things to make it dangerous for flyers, but you won't remove the innate advantage of air superiority.

If you want to force people to slog through the jungle, then don't add flyers to your game.  You've already boxed yourselves into a corner however, and now you're losing the folks who prior to this patch were willing to defend your studio and it's early access shenanigans.

[Khadez]

33 minutes ago, szabiferi said:

With all respect @Jat stop playing elusive and delaying tactics with this "mega thread" methodology. Its obvious no one will take seriously any comments in a topic with thousands of comments, rage, dueling.

Your minions already created this on steam, and you got more than enough responses: http://steamcommunity.com/app/346110/discussions/0/133261369999498057/

Right now it has 4665 comments, what else do you need? 

Please treat us as a customers - I know its hard because lots of us raging by now... but that's not our fault, we got no proper forum and we feel no one listens. Say something specific what we can use, not just generic meaningless marketing BS asking for patience.

You had all the time you wanted to design this patch, no one held a gun to your head to nerf the birds without any proper research. Still you did it, retrospectively ruining the players "work". Lots of hours of grinding got annihilated. It's natural we would like to see something specific. 

According to http://steamcharts.com/app/346110#1m March is the month they lost the most players in the history of ark and the patch was release the last day late that day. Also with the Massive of bad steam reviews they could try to start understanding we are customers.

Great Post. Btw

[NEWMFIN]

2 minutes ago, MurderHobo said:

If you Wildcard guys have learned nothing out of this, I guess you now know that there is no way to balance flyers.  It's like trying to balance rifles vs. swords.  Air superiority rules the battlefield and it has since the aircraft carrier killed the battleship.  You're trying to balance something that was developed to trump what came before.

Flying is preferable to slogging across country just like a sniper rifle is preferable to a battleaxe.  There is no mechanical 'balance' for air superiority.  You can do things to make it dangerous for flyers, but you won't remove the innate advantage of air superiority.

If you want to force people to slog through the jungle, then don't add flyers to your game.  You've already boxed yourselves into a corner however, and now you're losing the folks who prior to this patch were willing to defend your studio and it's early access shenanigans.

Personally they should have added terror to the sky's instead, more dragons roaming or can't fly when it raining.

[Probitas]

4 minutes ago, MurderHobo said:

If you Wildcard guys have learned nothing out of this, I guess you now know that there is no way to balance flyers.  It's like trying to balance rifles vs. swords.  Air superiority rules the battlefield and it has since the aircraft carrier killed the battleship.  You're trying to balance something that was developed to trump what came before.

Flying is preferable to slogging across country just like a sniper rifle is preferable to a battleaxe.  There is no mechanical 'balance' for air superiority.  You can do things to make it dangerous for flyers, but you won't remove the innate advantage of air superiority.

If you want to force people to slog through the jungle, then don't add flyers to your game.  You've already boxed yourselves into a corner however, and now you're losing the folks who prior to this patch were willing to defend your studio and it's early access shenanigans.

I don't think they are that naive and inexperienced (I hope not). But yes, it's like trying to reverse progress like the Luddites did. I wonder how many people would prefer they pull breeding out if that solved their problems, because I'm certain it would.

[NEWMFIN]

2 minutes ago, Probitas said:

I don't think they are that naive and inexperienced (I hope not). But yes, it's like trying to reverse progress like the Luddites did. I wonder how many people would prefer they pull breeding out if that solved their problems, because I'm certain it would.

Breeding is the only reason I came back at this point, I wanted to try my hand at it.  I just pulled all the mods off of my private server to go to vanilla.

[rfirewriter]

In the days leading up to the patch I knew "Flier Nerf" could mean big changes.

I was prepared for a degree of cutbacks and a change in the way I traversed the islands. I was fine with every route I thought the you might take:

Each point into movement weighing a little less, forcing you to think a little harder about where you allocated it, because now it's not an extra ~3%, it's 1.5% or whatever.

Maybe stamina depleted more quickly, making travel more dangerous by forcing you to land in areas that might be less hospitable than you'd prefer.

Maybe there'd be a cutback in stamina altogether.

Maybe they'd be cut to fit roles a little more. Pteras a little flimsier, fitting their low-level but quick 'scout' role. Argies tailored to fit their 'air barge', mid-tier slot, etc.

Maybe Wildcard would nerf the damage of pteras 'c'-attack, or make it a little more costly stamina-wise.

Maybe there'd be a movement cap, but it wouldn't bebase-, but it'd be beyond a fresh-caught flier. Give me SOME means of customizing that, of making my bird just a little different, better, more suited to me.

I got it all and then some. I got DEMORALIZING amounts.

What I got? What I got was my carefully bred ptera with 220% speed and 2.5k stamina dropped to base speed, with just 12 levels refunded and 700 stamina.

I now have to rest twice to get a quarter of the way across the island at speeds that negate their utility.

They're broken. YOU have broken them.

I should be allowed to fly around at crazy speeds - because that is how I choose to level my bird.

At the sacrifice of more durability, more carry weight, whatever it is that I could otherwise put points into.

You have taken that freedom, that ability to customize and balance the fliers away from me. I've invested in breeding, a fair bit of time, in upping those other stats FOR THE SINGULAR PURPOSE of not missing out on those stats when I DO level speed.

This isn't just salt. This is someone who has sunk ridiculous hours into the game. Who's met your critics with optimism and happily singing the, "Well they're early access!" chorus.

I placated my friends who hated that an EA game released PAID DLC with, "But they've already made good on SO many promises, they deserve it!"

I love the game. But I don't play PVP, I play PVE, with my friends, on a quiet, private server.

If a PVP-er is unhappy with how fliers are balanced and how they change the game, they can CHOOSE to play on a server where fliers aren't permitted/tamed.

I don't have a choice. I just want to travel and I cant

@Jat

[CaveNoob]

Xbox player, weekend warrior, don't have "ini" options.

Am I to understand you're going to cut the stamina and speed of my birds to 1/3 of what they were??

I ground pound it with Rex's, bears and Steggos. I fly to get to places to grind where ground dinos can't reach or when I don't have the time, being a weekend warrior and adult.

 

[chew0n1t]

IMO, and while trying to be constructive, I'd like to know how stopping players from being able to level up the speed of flyers so that they can achieve the otherwise impossible tasks is a 'balance improvement'?

For example - to get a wyvern you need a flyer that can outrun wyverns for a reasonable distance when you steal the egg on SE. Until now you leveled up an Argies speed to do this, but all existing increases to Argy speed have been wiped out. So what is now fast enough and strong enough to do this?

Most tribes have multiples of the same dino/flyer that have been levelled up in different ways for specific jobs, wieght, speed, attack, ect ect. All of which need to have different stats for speed, but flyers no longer have that ability.

I play solo PVE, I have 3 Ptera for different tasks, 1 HAD 285% speed which was used for scouting when I wanted to tame something, 1 HAD 150% speed and 500 weight - used for fetching chitin from my farm in the cave, 1 HAD 100% speed and 700 weight, (Was my first 150 perfect tame and have had it a very long time) - was used for an experiment when flying to my water penn. NOW all have 135% speed and their stamina is ridiculous. Sprint and you'll fall out of the sky in no time, barral to the ground in two rolls!

The sheer playability of all flyers has been devastated - Yes there was something wrong when it was possible to get a levelled up Agent to fly faster than a newly tamed Ptera with very little work, but you addressed that a long time ago. Now you have gone to an extreme and simply put many things out of the reach of all but the few Alpha Tribes that can line up dozens of tribe members to do suicide runs so 1 member can achieve basic goals like steal a Wyvern egg!

It would be better to introduce 'caps' on a stats ability to be upgraded - Maximum speed that a particular type of flyer can achieve then the levelling button be greyed out and unavailable would put versatility back in to the game play.

 

Also IMO, the rest of this latest update is great - now that we can take part stacks again from boxes and dino's again - and you should keep up this great work. Loving the sound improvements too.

[spacejam]

1 hour ago, ncola7 said:

@Jat is it possible for you to post the teams thoughts? Like what are the goals and opinions on nerfing flyers. What are specific problems are trying to be fixed? Doesn't have to be numbers or anything, just "pteranadon to strong in raiding." "quetz to dynamic and used for everything." "ground dinos not used enough."

I think clarity on the goal will make people less hostile and you will get more focused and constructive feedback. It's early access and we're your testers. Help us help you. 

That would actually help a lot with everything I believe. knowing and trying to understand the point of view from the team in a more detailed view will help us provide the feedback that is really needed other wise like always it will end up being a " I want post"

[MissG]

13 minutes ago, MurderHobo said:

If you Wildcard guys have learned nothing out of this, I guess you now know that there is no way to balance flyers.  It's like trying to balance rifles vs. swords.  Air superiority rules the battlefield and it has since the aircraft carrier killed the battleship.  You're trying to balance something that was developed to trump what came before.

Flying is preferable to slogging across country just like a sniper rifle is preferable to a battleaxe.  There is no mechanical 'balance' for air superiority.  You can do things to make it dangerous for flyers, but you won't remove the innate advantage of air superiority.

If you want to force people to slog through the jungle, then don't add flyers to your game.  You've already boxed yourselves into a corner however, and now you're losing the folks who prior to this patch were willing to defend your studio and it's early access shenanigans.

 

That's the point! Exactly my thoughts.

 

[Cataclisto]

I am a FULL pve player and have almost 4,000 hours into ark (about 100 short). Every major VET player on the SE and island official servers I play on, (players who have played this game for over a year), all do not like this nerf, many of them are waiting to see what happens before they play Siriusly anymore. I'm going to go with the community consensus and say that PVE and PVP nerfs need to be separated. Dinos are not used the same way depending on the type of server your in. You balance and in some cases make them solely for pvp and then end up with a very large pve backlash as displayed by the community in the last patch.

Now if the above isn't possible, I do understand that you need to balance them. Earlier today I posted a thread in the suggestions, personally id rather not see it happen, but ill gladly take it over what we have now

I'll give you all some history on my style of play, I have tamed large numbers in the past and eventually reduced the numbers to have my favorite dinos for myself and egg layers, right now i have my base full of rex's for boss fighting of which i feel im now forced to do to expand farther into the game. When im not breeding or building my base im flying around the island enjoying the scenery looking for highest levels, either for myself or other players on my server. I bring tames from SE to the island and tames from the island to SE to give away to people that may want them if I'm able to tame them easily. To find tames of a certain level requires close inspection of every single dino, some days I'm flying around for 10 hours of the 14 hours a day that I might play. I found it relaxing flying my wyvern around the island, not needing to stop and rest unless i was looking for something specific.

Thats all over, my wyvern was built to join with the people of our server to help fight the dodorex, It cant sprint long enough anymore for me to enjoy using it, no stamina points were ever spent, my tribemates thylaco can outrun it when its not sprinting. My new horse can make it clear across the island and only need to stop a few times, Wyvern can hardly make it from one side of green obelisk to the other and loose half its stamina. It can attack twice with its lightning bolt, and then im pretty much done for if something gets me stuck, a high level alpha carno could probibly take me out now, something that was built to survive a few attacks from the dodorex. I bred high level argents for the past month, traded other people for high level pteras for breeding, and thats over too atleast for now.

The patch hit us pvers like a truck dragging a trainwrecked pvp server as its cargo, thus creating a much bigger wreck.