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Rex vs Gigazino, the definitive analysis


killkrazed

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On another thread I noticed some arguments over which is better for bosses and have decided to give an in-depth analysis of the 2.
Who would win if a Therizino and a Rex where to verse each other in mortal combat?

Let's start by using this post by one person claiming that Rexes have higher dps and are better in every way to a Therizino and deconstruct the information provided:
 

On 2017/03/19 at 8:49 PM, Jostabeere said:

Therizinos do no do more damage. They do less damage than a Rex in every way. They have less base damage, and less DPS. Even the slightly better attack speed does not help them reach a Rex's DPS.

I tested with a level 1 Rex and a level 1 Therizino on the Trainings Dummy.
The Rex had a base hit of ~900 and the Therizino had a base hit of ~750.
Rex's DPS was 1,081 and Therizino only was able to get a DPS of 1,058.
And if you breed Therizinos to have comparable health to non-bred Rex's, a bred Rex will outclass it again.

There is no way a Therizino can be superior to a Rex by stats and the only advantage it has outside of farming are the cakes.

 

Keep in mind that I have tested all information I am about to provide on my own server and have confirmed the numbers and formula's presented to be true.
Feel free to test yourself to confirm.


Also, I am not doing this to insult the guy, it's just that after reading the above comment I came to realize that the community does not have much information on either the Therizino or the effectiveness of Sweet vegetable cakes in a pvp (or even pve) scenario and as I have done some testing on both myself I figured I would do a complete analysis and lay down as much information as I can.

1) "Therizino's do less damage than a Rex in every way":
This was actually the comment that made me want to make this analysis. I realized that many people are unaware of the Therizino's interaction with saddle armor and as I have created a formula that can accurately calculate the damage it will do vs different saddle armors, this is where I decided to start.

1.1) Base damage

  • Therizino base damage = 52.
  • Rex base damage = 62.

Winner = Rex.

1.2) Damage vs saddled (25 armor) opponents at 100% melee

  • Therizino damage dealt = 47*.
  • Therizino bonus** damage = 50.
  • Rex damage dealt = 31.

Winner = Therizino.

*The Therizino uses a different calculation than normal against saddle armor which results in it ignoring much of the armor: BaseDamage*100/(100 + Armor / 2.5).
**At random the Therizino will use a different formula for damage calculation: BaseDamage*100/(100 + Armor / 10)
I do not have the % chance of this happening as of yet so will mostly ignore it going forward.
It is not after a set number of attacks either, and affects large and small dino's alike. No effect on wild dino's.

1.3) Conclusion
While having less base damage than a Rex, Therizino's ignore a percentage of armor when attacking.
Rexes Deal more damage against wild Dino's. Therizino's deal more damage than a Rex Vs Saddled opponents.
 

2) DamagePerSecond:

"Even the slightly better attack speed does not help them reach a Rex's DPS"
 

2.1) Attack speed

The training dummy has weird damage multipliers so you can't trust it's dps or damage, you can however use it to get attack speed by dividing dps by damage per hit.
I tested on my own training dummy as exact numbers were not provided and I wanted to be 100% certain before going on. These are my results.

  • Rex = 1 attacks per second.
  • Therizino = 1.2 attacks per second.

*note that at the time of writing I did not have the damage numbers of the dummy in front of me (and my memory sucks), and as they are unimportant (only important information being the attack speed) and I did not write them down I have opted to leave them out for now. I can re-test and post the damage numbers as well if people would really like to see them.

2.2) Dps calculations

  • Rex vs Wild: 62*1 = 62dps
  • Rex vs 25 armor saddle: 32*1 = 32dps
  • Rex vs 100 armor saddle: 62*100/(100+100*4)*1 = 12.4dps
  • Theri vs Wild: 52*1.2 = 62.4dps
  • Theri vs 25 armor saddle: 47*1.2 = 56.4dps
  • Theri vs 100 armor saddle: 52*100/(100+100/2.5)*1.2 = 44.57dps

2.3) Conclusion
The Therizino has higher dps at all times.
The Therizino has negligibly higher dps against wild dino's, 76% higher dps against saddled (25 armor) dino's, and 359% more dps against saddled (100 armor) dino's.

3) Rex vs Therizino stat comparison:

To test this I had to fabricate some dino's, as spawning exact stat-distributed dino's is next to impossible. The Rexes I had, for the Therizino's I matched their stat distributions to the Rexes.
I used the "Ark smart breeding" app to compare their stats. I am only comparing Health vs Damage as for this example they are the only relevant stats.
They had 45 wild levels into HP, and 39 wild levels into Damage.

3.1) Stats prior to breeding (100% TE)

  • Rex hp: 11000
  • Rex damage %: 355.2
  • Therizino hp: 8700
  • Therizino damage %: 355.2

Rexes have about 26% more hp to start than Therizino's, Damage% is equal.

3.2) Stats after breeding (100% imprint)

  • Rex hp: 13200
  • Rex damage %: 424.5
  • Therizino hp: 10440
  • Therizino damage %: 424.5

Rexes still have about 26% more hp to start than Therizino's, Damage% is equal.

3.3) Stats after 30 levels in each (100% imprint)

  • Rex hp: 34584
  • Rex damage %: 641
  • Therizino hp: 27535
  • Therizino damage %: 641

3.4) Conclusion:

With equal stat distribution, Rexes will always have about 26% more health than a Therizino. Damage% will be equal.

 

4) Which is better against bosses?

Now, Therizino's have considerably lower HP than Rexes, and their "armor negating" attacks don't affect the bosses at all. This means that by default the dps of both dino's against bosses are roughly the same (Therizino has slightly higher), but the Rexes will have considerably more HP. This means that without using Sweet Vegetable Cake, Rexes are objectively better at fighting bosses.

Since Therizino's can use sweet vegetable cake I feel it is an advantage that should not be overlooked, so how much of an advantage is Sweet Vegetable Cake exactly, and can it make the Therizino viable against bosses? The answer is... complicated. The short of it is that the longer the battle lasts, the bigger the advantage. This means that the Therizino can be tankier than a Rex when facing a dps that is sufficiently low enough that it has enough time to utilize the sweet veggie cake.

Sweet veggie cake is more effective the longer the battle drags on and has the advantage of being used autonomously.

Force feeding meat is faster at healing (if you have an autoclicker / macro), but can only be used on the Rex you are riding on (during which time the rex is not attacking) so each has it's pro's and cons.

I cannot give anything conclusive at this point due to lack of information - the viability of the Therizino against bosses will ultimately depend on getting accurate dps numbers from the bosses. I just don't have enough quality information on the bosses to do a comparison there.

I can give one valuable piece of information however that could help you decide for yourself: With Sweet veggie cake, if your Therizino's can survive longer than 2 minutes against whatever boss you're fighting - the Therizino can actually tank an equal amount of damage as the Rex (based on a 30k hp rex, time is lessened with lower hp due to the difference in hp being lower). It is important to note however that in order to get the full effect of sweet veggie cake you need at least 21k hp on your Therizino. At times of longer than 2 minutes, the Therizino can actually have higher effective hp due to the prolonged healing.

5) Tamed Rex vs Therizino, which one wins in a Battle to the Death?

One thing I do have enough information on to do a full comparison on is to pit them against each other in a virtual battle to see which comes out tops in a 1v1 fight:
Going to use a Rex I actually have for this comparison, and fabricate a Therizino with the same wild stats. The rex has 45 wild levels into hp and 39 into melee. I will give myself 55 domestic levels to play with on each of them:

With 24 levels into Hp and 31 into melee, the Rex has 30k hp and 648% while the Therizino has 24K hp and 648%.
Now for some veggie cake calcs:

Veggie cake healing/s (2100 over 30 secs, 10 seconds cooldown): 2100/40 = 52.5hp/s.
Hp difference: 30307-23970 = 6337
Time needed to heal: 6337/52.5 = 121 seconds. 3 cakes)


So um yeah, if you survive longer than 2 minutes and have at least 3 sweet veggie cakes per Therizino they actually can tie Rexes for survivability and will have higher dps.
If you live longer than that, they will actually have more survivability which increases exponentially with the time taken to kill them.

So, let's see who wins the fight:

5.1) No mate boost, no imprinted rider, 25 armor saddle:

Theri Damage: 52*6.48*100/(100+25/2.5) = 306
Theri DPS: 306*1.2 = 367.2
Time to kill Rex: 30307/367.2 = 83 seconds


Rex Damage: 60*6.48*100/(100+25*4) = 194
Rex Dps = 194
Time to Kill Theri (no cake): 23970/194 = 124 seconds
Effective dps with cake: 194-52.5 = 141.5
Time to kill Theri (cake): 23970/141.5 = 170 seconds

With no cake, Therizino wins with 7868 hp remaining.
With cake, Therizino wins with 12225 hp remaining. 3 cakes used during battle.



5.2) Same as above. 100 armor saddles.

Theri Damage: 52*6.48*100/(100+100/2.5) = 240
Theri DPS: 240*1.2 = 288
Time to kill Rex: 30307/288 = 106 seconds


Rex Damage: 60*6.48*100/(100+100*4) = 78
Rex Dps = 78
Time to Kill Theri (no cake): 23970/78 = 308 seconds
Effective dps with cake: 78-52.5 = 25.5
Time to kill Theri (cake): 23970/25.5 = 940 seconds

With no cake, Therizino wins with 15702 hp remaining.
With no cake, Therizino will still win even with a 25 armor saddle equipped with 3406 hp remaining.
With cake, Therizino ROFLSTOMPS with 21267 hp remaining. 3 Cakes used during battle.

With cake , can beat at most 2 same-stat Rexes with them hitting simultaneously and you only hitting 1 at a time and still have 10296 hp remaining.
With cake, can beat up to 3 same-stat Rexes if you hit all 3 simultaneously and survive with 4731 hp remaining.



5.3) 55 Levels into hp only, 100 armor saddles

Theri Damage: 52*4.24*100/(100+100/2.5) = 157
Theri DPS: 157*1.2 = 188.4
Time to kill Rex: 52404/188.4 = 279 seconds


Rex Damage: 60*4.24*100/(100+100*4) = 50
Rex Dps: = 50
Time to Kill Theri (no cake): 41447/50 = 829 seconds
Effective dps with cake: 50-52.5 = LOL NOPE
Time to kill Theri (cake): 41447/LOL NOPE = LOL NOPE

With no cake, Therizino wins with 27497 hp remaining.
With cake, The healing from the cake outraces the Rexes Dps - effectively making the Therizino have infinite hp.
With cake, Rex needs at least 439% melee (2 extra levels) before it can start damaging the Therizino (at a very slow rate).
With cake, can beat at most 3 same-stat Rexes with them hitting simultaneously and you only hitting 1 at a time and barely survive with 991 hp remaining (after 2nd dies).
With cake, can beat up to 4 same-stat Rexes if you hit all 4 simultaneously and barely survive with 294 hp remaining.

 

5.4) HP Therizino, Melee Rex, 100 armor saddles

Theri Damage: 52*4.24*100/(100+100/2.5) = 157
Theri DPS: 157*1.2 = 188.4
Time to kill Rex: 13200/188.4 = 71 seconds


Rex Damage: 60*8.21*100/(100+100*4) = 98
Rex Dps: = 98
Time to Kill Theri (no cake): 41447/98 = 423 seconds
Effective dps with cake: 98-52.5 = 45.5
Time to kill Theri (cake): 41447/45.5 = 911 seconds

With no cake, Therizino wins with 34489 hp remaining.
With cake, Therizino wins with 38216 hp remaining.
With cake, can beat at most 3 same-stat Rexes with them hitting simultaneously and you only hitting 1 at a time and survive with 10880 hp remaining.
With cake, can beat up to 6 same-stat Rexes if you hit all 6 simultaneously and survive with 3426 hp remaining.

 

5.5) HP Rex, Melee Therizino, 100 armor saddles

Theri Damage: 52*8.21*100/(100+100/2.5) = 304
Theri DPS: 304*1.2 = 364.8
Time to kill Rex: 52404/364.8 = 144 seconds

***Cake effective healing/s: (10440*0.1)/40 = 26.1

Rex Damage: 60*4.24*100/(100+100*4) = 50
Rex Dps: = 50
Time to Kill Theri (no cake): 10440/50 = 209 seconds
Effective dps with cake: 50-26.1 = 23.9
Time to kill Theri (cake): 10440/23.9 = 437 seconds

With no cake, Therizino wins with 3240 hp remaining.
With cake, Therizino wins with 6998 hp remaining.
***The cake is not able to get it's maximum healing/s due to having less than 21k hp, and it heals 10% of max hp (max of 2100).

5.6) Conclusion

  • With equal stat distribution and levels the Therizino will always beat a Rex with or without cake.
  • The effectiveness of Sweet veggie cake is compounded with good saddle armor (and increased hp), as the more you lower the opponents dps the more time you have to heal with sweet veggie cake, and the longer you heal the more damage you output. You can see the gap in HP widening dramatically as saddle armor increases.
  • Although the gap in dps is small at first when taking into account the Therizino's "armor-negating" attacks and faster attack speed, the gap between the Therizino's dps and the Rex's dps widens dramatically as saddle armor increases due to the Rex having a greater penalty to damage.
  • The effectiveness of saddle armor is also compounded due to the Therizino's "armor-negating" attacks, which reduces even ascendant saddles to be less effective than a base primitive saddle. A Therizino in a primitive saddle (25) will still beat a Rex with an ascendant saddle (100) even without cake due to this advantage.
  • The Therizino in general gets greater benefit from HP and saddle armor than it does from melee damage.

 

5) In closing

Against bosses it still isn't certain which is better to use, as a Therizino will only be on equal footing to the Rex if the boss has a low enough dps for it to take advantage of the healing from Sweet vegetable cakes.

When versing other player tamed dino's however, the Therizino is hands-down the winner.
It obliterates the Rex utterly, with or without cakes and seemingly regardless of saddle armor or stat optimization. It's advantage is widened dramatically as both HP and Saddle armor are increased, even with the Rex being afforded the same stats (with 26% higher hp) and saddle armor. The Therizino simply gets much higher benefit per point into HP and saddle armor due to the healing from the sweet vegetable cakes, while negating the advantage the opposing Rex may have from it's own saddle armor.

The only thing more dangerous to a tamed dino than a Therizino is a Giganotasaurus.
Who knows, maybe even the Giga is threatened by the Therizino (not likely, Giga ignores both armor and health thanks to it's bleed. I should test sometime).

I haven't tested Imprinting or damage/resistance bonuses yet (such as mate boost) as I don't know how they would stack 1v1 and need to test, which will require a tribe mate of mine to have some spare time (and be willing to leave the tribe for a couple hours while I test). They could just effectively cancel each other out, but they could also yield a different number either higher or lower than the damage without imprinting depending on stacking order. My initial thoughts on how it would work based on current results though are that the Therizino will have it's advantage widened even further as it tends to get greater benefit from both damage resistance and increased damage due to the combination of healing from the veggie cakes and the armor negating attacks it possesses.

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Nice work and nice calculations. I have never looked into it in so much detail and never plan to but thanks for the insight. 

As in so many situations, Im sure someone will point out that there is a wrong calculation or you havent taken x into consideration. 

Overall, I think its down to personal preference, they both seem big game dinos and some might prefer the more agile dino or the full on power of a Rex.

Nice post though.

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could it be that unridden theri uses his headbutt attack sometimes instead of claw swipe or vice versa just like he does in the wild. Hence the discrepancy in damage dealt per hit (and headbutt is the one that goes through saddle armor, damaging rider as well).

 

Edit: tests showed that prime attack that is less affected by armor and headbutt is more affected

Unsaddled tamed not mate-boosted rex:

158 damage with swipe (stable)

126 damage with headbutt

With 67.4 armor saddle:

124 with swipe (sometimes 148, more often if you aim at rex's body - put camera up in the sky)

34 with headbutt

For completeness: "gentle touch" is 12 and 3 respectively.

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@killkrazed good write up, clearly lots of thought and time put into it.

A few comments, you showed rex dps vs wild to be slightly higher but refer a few times that therizinosaurus is higher. while agree it's close, and almost negligible you refer to it many times and should probably correct that since I think it gives the rex a slight advantage against the boss.

Where did you get your therizino armor penetration damage formula from? If that's accurate the devs have made a huge balancing error giving 1 dino it's own mechanic that scales that well. 

lastly, simple typo. 3.3) 30 levels section has rex damage % the same as section before and lower then theriz. I assume it should be same as theriz in that section.

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Thank you for quoting me.

Yet I have to say that you deceived some informations trying to show that I'm wrong. I provided more math on the damage calculation of both dinos in the same thread you got the quote from.

And this thread was explicitly about fighting the bosses. I did not take saddles or anything else in calculation.

And my math still proves that Rexes have a higher DPS against bosses than Therizinos because the slightly higher attack speed of the Therizino cannot compete with the much superior raw damage of the Rex.

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11 minutes ago, Jostabeere said:

Thank you for quoting me.

Yet I have to say that you deceived some informations trying to show that I'm wrong. I provided more math on the damage calculation of both dinos in the same thread you got the quote from.

And this thread was explicitly about fighting the bosses. I did not take saddles or anything else in calculation.

And my math still proves that Rexes have a higher DPS against bosses than Therizinos because the slightly higher attack speed of the Therizino cannot compete with the much superior raw damage of the Rex.

Your math, and Killkrazed's tests, show that there is a negligible difference between the Rex and Theri on unarmored targets for overall DPS (0.95% difference, which should remain constant given linear leveling). Don't overstate your data. I actually think Killkrazed is a little conservative in his overall assessment of Theri vs. Rex for bosses. If you're willing to invest the effort to maximizing your dinos (which you really ought to if you're going to fight the bosses), then the Theri will do better because of cakes. It's not significantly different in damage, and while it does have lower HP, it can self heal at a pretty substantial rate, which Killkrazed identifies when he notes that any fight lasting longer than two minutes will hand the tanking advantage to the Theri, with the comparable DPS meaning the Theri is an overall superior choice. Obviously Killkrazed doesn't conclude the same way, but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion at all to say the Theri wins.

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2 minutes ago, PuffyPony said:

Your math, and Killkrazed's tests, show that there is a negligible difference between the Rex and Theri on unarmored targets for overall DPS (0.95% difference, which should remain constant given linear leveling). Don't overstate your data. I actually think Killkrazed is a little conservative in his overall assessment of Theri vs. Rex for bosses. If you're willing to invest the effort to maximizing your dinos (which you really ought to if you're going to fight the bosses), then the Theri will do better because of cakes. It's not significantly different in damage, and while it does have lower HP, it can self heal at a pretty substantial rate, which Killkrazed identifies when he notes that any fight lasting longer than two minutes will hand the tanking advantage to the Theri, with the comparable DPS meaning the Theri is an overall superior choice. Obviously Killkrazed doesn't conclude the same way, but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion at all to say the Theri wins.

That's why I even said he has the advantage of cakes 2 times in said thread.

Yet someone wanted to know about the damage. And I honestly made the tests and the math to show that Rex deals slightly more damage without mumb-jumbo like saddles. Which bosses do not have.

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53 minutes ago, PuffyPony said:

Your math, and Killkrazed's tests, show that there is a negligible difference between the Rex and Theri on unarmored targets for overall DPS (0.95% difference, which should remain constant given linear leveling). Don't overstate your data. I actually think Killkrazed is a little conservative in his overall assessment of Theri vs. Rex for bosses. If you're willing to invest the effort to maximizing your dinos (which you really ought to if you're going to fight the bosses), then the Theri will do better because of cakes. It's not significantly different in damage, and while it does have lower HP, it can self heal at a pretty substantial rate, which Killkrazed identifies when he notes that any fight lasting longer than two minutes will hand the tanking advantage to the Theri, with the comparable DPS meaning the Theri is an overall superior choice. Obviously Killkrazed doesn't conclude the same way, but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion at all to say the Theri wins.

You have to understand some things:

1. killkrazed's tests are synthetic

2. he used attack speed of dinos with riders and interpolated it to "math battle" of Rex vs Theri. Riderless dinos attack less often than ones with riders plus you wont be attacking boss riding all the Theris.

3. In field test Riderless Theris use less efficient attack (headbutt) quite often that negatively affects DPS.

 

So while Theris might survive a bit longer thanks to cakes, Rexes will win in sheer DPS and TTK (Time to kill) on boss getting less damage overall.

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1 hour ago, DarthaNyan said:

You have to understand some things:

1. killkrazed's tests are synthetic

2. he used attack speed of dinos with riders and interpolated it to "math battle" of Rex vs Theri. Riderless dinos attack less often than ones with riders plus you wont be attacking boss riding all the Theris.

3. In field test Riderless Theris use less efficient attack (headbutt) quite often that negatively affects DPS.

 

So while Theris might survive a bit longer thanks to cakes, Rexes will win in sheer DPS and TTK (Time to kill) on boss getting less damage overall.

1- The only real difference is that the boss fights back. This is a video game, one with relatively straightforward combat mechanics too, so the "synthetic" tests are realistically not significantly different from the way DPS would work in actual combat situations.
2- This applies to both dinos
3- The headbutt deals the same amount of damage as the claw attack, it simply does not hit through armor (you can check this by turning on damage indicators on a private server and biting a Dodo). I don't know the difference attack speed, but it qualitatively does not seem significantly different from the claw attack. Even if it is slower, it would need to drastically reduce the overall DPS of the Theri to say that it is significantly worse than the Rex.

So, no, the Rex will not win in sheer DPS--unless you count insignificant differences as a win. Using the OP's data, the Rex beats the Theri by 0.95%. That's small enough that you could even attribute it to calculation/rounding error if you didn't have other tests to corroborate it (which, we do). It's certainly not enough of a difference to justify the Rex over the Theri on the basis of damage alone. Even as much as a 5% damage difference could be justified IF the Theri has better tendency to survive, which as OP discusses, it generally will, especially with prolonged fights AND (as I found in my own testing on the original thread that OP and Jostabeere mention) with better saddles. That becomes relevant because as Rexes start dying due to comparatively poorer tanking ability, the effective net DPS drops. For the Theri, it remains constant becomes they're going to survive longer. That's why the Theri becomes the better choice.

 

1 hour ago, Jostabeere said:

That's why I even said he has the advantage of cakes 2 times in said thread.

Yet someone wanted to know about the damage. And I honestly made the tests and the math to show that Rex deals slightly more damage without mumb-jumbo like saddles. Which bosses do not have.

Right, I'm just saying that your tests (and OP's, which lends credence to it) show that the DPS difference between the two is small enough that you can consider it non-existent, so it's really not enough to say "The Rex has better DPS than the Theri" because, even though that's technically true, it's not going to make a perceptible difference. For very, very high levels, you could consider it potentially significant depending on your boss, but even then, you do need to remember the contribution of the Theri's survival advantage over the Rex. Like I pointed out above, as tames start dying, your overall DPS drops. The ability to keep your tames in the fight, even if just an extra minute, then makes a huge difference.

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All this shows me is Meat eaters need their own version of a veggie cake..  Maybe a Mutton pie ? overall Good work by the o.p. I just wish therizo weren't so hard to tame given that megalosaurus are pretty much a unicorn animal on vanilla ark..  I've heard of them but never seen one myself let alone getting a male and female for eggs.. 

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1 hour ago, PuffyPony said:

Right, I'm just saying that your tests (and OP's, which lends credence to it) show that the DPS difference between the two is small enough that you can consider it non-existent, so it's really not enough to say "The Rex has better DPS than the Theri" because, even though that's technically true, it's not going to make a perceptible difference. For very, very high levels, you could consider it potentially significant depending on your boss, but even then, you do need to remember the contribution of the Theri's survival advantage over the Rex. Like I pointed out above, as tames start dying, your overall DPS drops. The ability to keep your tames in the fight, even if just an extra minute, then makes a huge difference.

That is right. The difference is small. But not non-existant. The difference between 0.000001 and 0.0000011 is very small. But mathematically not non-existant.

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19 minutes ago, DmpTrkDrvr said:

All this shows me is Meat eaters need their own version of a veggie cake..  Maybe a Mutton pie ? overall Good work by the o.p. I just wish therizo weren't so hard to tame given that megalosaurus are pretty much a unicorn animal on vanilla ark..  I've heard of them but never seen one myself let alone getting a male and female for eggs.. 

I don't know, I've always looked at it as a mixed bag. Carnivores have the benefit of recovering health from eating meat, though in small amounts. Herbivores can't recover health from eating berries or crops, but thanks to veggie cakes they can recover in basically one lump.

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11 minutes ago, ciabattaroll said:

I don't know, I've always looked at it as a mixed bag. Carnivores have the benefit of recovering health from eating meat, though in small amounts. Herbivores can't recover health from eating berries or crops, but thanks to veggie cakes they can recover in basically one lump.

At the very early stage of the game Carnivores had an ability to heal (in % of max hp) when they consumed corpses, later devs considered that ability OP and left it only for wild meat eaters. =/

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4 hours ago, Jostabeere said:

Thank you for quoting me.

Yet I have to say that you deceived some informations trying to show that I'm wrong. I provided more math on the damage calculation of both dinos in the same thread you got the quote from.

And this thread was explicitly about fighting the bosses. I did not take saddles or anything else in calculation.

And my math still proves that Rexes have a higher DPS against bosses than Therizinos because the slightly higher attack speed of the Therizino cannot compete with the much superior raw damage of the Rex.

If his attack speed calculation is accurate though, at base 100% damage, the Rex has 60 dps, but the Theriz has 62.4 both against wild dinos. Testing against the dummy gives you their damage against thatch structures, which use a different calculation than anything else in the game.

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1 minute ago, vanyelxp5 said:

If his attack speed calculation is accurate though, at base 100% damage, the Rex has 60 dps, but the Theriz has 62.4 both against wild dinos. Testing against the dummy gives you their damage against thatch structures, which use a different calculation than anything else in the game.

I already found out pretty exactly that a Rex has an attack speed of 1.19 and Therizino 1.4.

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7 hours ago, Jostabeere said:

I already found out pretty exactly that a Rex has an attack speed of 1.19 and Therizino 1.4.

You may want to test that again, I think something may be screwing with your numbers.
Besides, at those attack speeds the Theri still has higher dps (if using it's claw attack exclusively) against wild dino's, although negligibly so.
Also, getting a 1.19 in attack speed shows that there may be a discrepancy in the way the game rounded your damage (it rounds damage down to the nearest whole number since it doesn't show decimals), it is almost certainly a 1.2 if you knew the decimals (devs wouldn't program a weird number like 1.19 would they? I mean, i suppose it IS Wildcard, so who knows?)

After double checking attack speed a second time on my server I have confirmed that the Rex still has an attack speed of 1, and the Therizino still has an attack speed of 1.2
It's important to note that I tested this on an online server, not in my single player world. I don't know why there is a discrepancy in our numbers.
The bottom line is that regardless of the target, the Therizino will do more dps than a Rex - if and only if it is using it's claw attacks (which it may alternate from unridden).

11 hours ago, DarthaNyan said:

2. he used attack speed of dinos with riders and interpolated it to "math battle" of Rex vs Theri. Riderless dinos attack less often than ones with riders plus you wont be attacking boss riding all the Theris.

3. In field test Riderless Theris use less efficient attack (headbutt) quite often that negatively affects DPS.

 

So while Theris might survive a bit longer thanks to cakes, Rexes will win in sheer DPS and TTK (Time to kill) on boss getting less damage overall.

  • This is something I actually would really like to test myself, if *tamed* dino's do indeed attack slower when unridden, and if so by how much. Unfortunately I'm not exactly certain how to test this accurately, any suggestions?

I'd also like to see what the chance of them using alternate attacks are, and if there may be a way to prevent it. Also uncertain how to test.

 

13 hours ago, ncola7 said:

@killkrazed good write up, clearly lots of thought and time put into it.

A few comments, you showed rex dps vs wild to be slightly higher but refer a few times that therizinosaurus is higher. while agree it's close, and almost negligible you refer to it many times and should probably correct that since I think it gives the rex a slight advantage against the boss.

Where did you get your therizino armor penetration damage formula from? If that's accurate the devs have made a huge balancing error giving 1 dino it's own mechanic that scales that well. 

lastly, simple typo. 3.3) 30 levels section has rex damage % the same as section before and lower then theriz. I assume it should be same as theriz in that section.

  • Actually, I never once said the Rex had higher dps than the Therizino against wild targets. I did say the Therizino has higher dps, but it's a very small difference.
  • The armor penetration formula is one I created myself after running many, many tests. I have tested on a variety of saddles ranging from 25 armor up to 177.5 armor (my awesome Paracer saddle, non platform unfortunately) and the calculation has thus far never been inaccurate (you can test it yourself if you'd like to confirm, just be wary of mate boost when testing). For example a 314.1% Therizino of mine hits for 95/138 against the Paracer and 139//156 against a 43.7 armor Rex, which my formula/s confirm (remember, damage numbers are rounded down when being shown on screen):
    52*3.141*100/(100+177.5/2.5) = 95.51
    52*3.141*100/(100+177.5/10) = 138.71
    52*3.141*100/(100+43.7/2.5) = 139.02
    52*3.141*100/(100+43.7/10) = 156.49
  • Thanks, the typo in 3.3 has been fixed. Was a copy-paste oversight since I was tired.
     
7 hours ago, DarthaNyan said:

10% but no more than 2100 with a cooldown of 30 sec.

The cooldown is actually only 10 seconds after it's finished, but the time to heal is 30 seconds - so 40 seconds total.
This results in an average of 0.025% health being restored per second up to a maximum of 2100hp.

Anyway, not going to be doing another long test like this again soon. Want to focus on playing the game again and my eyes are straining.
I have a lot more discoveries I know aren't on the wiki but verifying and compiling it is a task I currently don't really want to take as I would be unable to play for a while.
I was thinking of maybe compiling an Arkive of sorts with actual, proper, accurate data (freaking useless wiki) if anyone would bother using it anyway.

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1 hour ago, Jostabeere said:

@killkrazed How high is the possibility that you didn't click fast enough? I used an autoclicker to measure the absolute fastest attack speed that is possible without any server lags or other game lags.

Did you use a program, or did you click manually.

I was also using an autoclicker to test. Set to 1ms.

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