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Why flying making content trivial isn't a bad thing.


Lumitesi

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So it is finally upon us. The flying nerf will come. No numbers have been announced yet but I fear for it. Supposedly in the dev's eyes, flyers make content trivial because you can avoid everything on the ground. I agree. What I don't agree is that it is a bad thing. Let me tell you why: 

First of all:

Most Land mounts already trivialize most content. I mean, hop on a parasaur (considered by most the most useless Mount in the game) and with a few points in speed you can outrun a Rex. Let alone something fast like a saber or a carno. By making us use ground mounts the only content you're really making us face is bad terrain geometry/design together with a really bad following mechanic that males ground caravans not viable.

Second: 

Sometimes players WANT to trivialize some of the content. Sometimes I just wanna visit a friend's base on the other side of the Island. And I really don't wanna spend 30m just in the travels. It makes no sense. Everything is very time consuming in this game, you don't need to add travelling to that list.

Third:

Forcing players to do content is NOT a good idea. I mean, currently we have the option to use land or flying mounts. We choose flying most of the time we have to do long travels. It's much more convenient. If you force me to use land mounts, my decision may just end up being "nah that will take too much time by land, I'll just log and go do something else." Why is that? When I have lots of time to play, sometimes I hop on my Giga and go to snow biome, kill stuff and look for high lvl wolves, rexes, rhinos. It takes me about 1h just travelling back and forth but I got the time and it's fun so I do it. Other times I only have about 2h so I hop on my Tape and go look for said animais. Given that the Tape is much faster I have a much higher probability to find one on time and tame it. If this option is taken away from me, most of the times this happens I will probably log out and go do something else because I just wont have time. So in order to untrivialize 80% of the content, you actually made 100% of it useless. 

Forth:

You already make me face your ground content way too much. This one is router in another flawed system, which is breeding. Anyone breeding carnivores knows that if you breed more than 3 at a time, most of your ingame time is spent out and about gathering meat for the babies. After spinning at least 2h a Day running around killing things and gathering meat, is it really a bad thing that I'm allowed to ignore these ground dinos when visiting friends? 

Fifth and to me, the most important of all:

You can fix this by adding sky threats, instead of nerfing things to the ground (heh). Add,  for example, a giant eagle that is all around the Island and hunts flying dinos. Or maybe alpha Argies. Or maybe weather effects that affect flying mounts. Adding depth to sky gameplay (as long as it isn't overly complicated) is a much better solution than straight up nerfing dinos.

I know that it is probably too late, and I'm speaking before I even know what the nerfs are, but I still wanted to leave my opinion here on why the flyer nerfs will probably be negative for the game and how there are better solutions.

TL,DR:

Some flyers do need nerfs. Ptera is too fast and barrel roll does too much damage for example, but overall I think a huge flying nerf would be negative for the game and it isn't a bad thing that flyers currently allow content to be trivial. 

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You make it sound like they are removing birds altogether, which is not the case. After i tamed a good argie i hardly use any other dinos (well, before quetz that is)

Metal run? Argie

Meat? Argie?

Wood, thatch, stone, hide etc etc etc? Argie

Nerfing their stats a little (like speed and weight) won't make them obsolete, but will give players a greater incentive to use their land dinos. 

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10 minutes ago, Argleksander said:

You make it sound like they are removing birds altogether, which is not the case. After i tamed a good argie i hardly use any other dinos (well, before quetz that is)

Metal run? Argie

Meat? Argie?

Wood, thatch, stone, hide etc etc etc? Argie

Nerfing their stats a little (like speed and weight) won't make them obsolete, but will give players a greater incentive to use their land dinos. 

^ this

For all we know, the ptera might receive more of the nerf than any of the flyers for all we know.

Thats not to say people shouldn't be a bit worried, I know alot of people, especially one person on the server I used to be on, took pride in the birds that they, not only tamed, but raised to be the best possible. So I understand that some people may be worried that their high bred birds may be castrated with this nerf.

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Flyers trivialize content. You want to travel to meet your friend, fast travel is there for you. The game is about survival, with every new additions, it is harder to survive, on your feet that is. Bring a low level ptera and you can bypass all those hot spots and even glitch most dinos and kill them effortlessly.

Ptera barrel roll and speed needs a nerf. A whole month of defense can be negated with 2 ptera with over 200% movement speed, even worse on Prim +, with bolas not working and only plant x available.

Those guys should be player killers, but not the dino killer they are now. We kill all of Carno island in minutes with ptera, and farm more meat faster than with land dino.

I want to see more paracer/bronto/rex sieging other, and having to move there slowly, not bringing a gigano on a quetz in minutes and destroying everything. It would be better for the game as a whole. 

Flyers wont be removed from the game either, I just hope they tone down the dps and speed some of them provide. Argy is in a good spot, it shouldnt be affected that much. Let's wait and see.

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35 minutes ago, JetJaguar said:

Remember when Blizzard delayed flying for people and then made it cost tons of gold and then added long gated quest chains before you could fly? And its not even a survival game? yeah..

 

I dont see how thats relevant in this case, in WoW you only used flying mounts for getting around and in that case also it trivialized the game once you got them. There was a reason you only could unlock them once you reached the new max level for each expansion.

Look at this for example..

 

quetz.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Argleksander said:

I dont see how thats relevant in this case, in WoW you only used flying mounts for getting around and in that case also it trivialized the game once you got them. There was a reason you only could unlock them once you reached the new max level for each expansion.

Look at this for example..

 

quetz.jpg

but that's just it: I believe WC didn't want the island to become trivialized so early on for survivors. So now its a situation of: "Well in retrospect, we should have made the flying come later/not so easy for survivors" which immediately made me recall Blizzard/WoW..

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Fast travel doesn't work if your friend is not in your clan. And why should players have to travel naked? That is the most idiotic thing I've heard yet to support nerfing flyers, fast travel. Why shouldn't players be able to fly across the island? Are you guys forgetting that Raptor Claus only drops in certain spots and you need to reach them fast. Limiting that travel to ground only means no one is likely to reach them in time. So you actually do negate content by altering other content. They may as well not have Raptor Claus at all if they wish to slow down flyers so much. Not well thought out at all is what I am hearing if you want to use negating content as an excuse to nerf flyers.

Glitches and rendering issues are problems with the rendering code, not the dinos. WC should be fixing those. (This is where adding content and then complaining about it not working right and expecting nerfs when the problems are caused by the support code is really stupid) It's better to leave content alone and concentrate on finishing the game and fixing those problems. Slowing down flyers that players put points into won't solve the problem if players just sink MORE points into those stats to compensate.

Finally, this game is NOT an MMO. Players should have the choice in what content they want to play. MMOs are gated by design, this game has gated bosses, and that is the only gated content that needs to be there. Nothing says a player has to go out and tame rexes and other large dinos - that is a pvp mentality mainly, and doesn't carry over into pve. In fact in the absence of raids or the need to do boss runs, it's not needed at all. You must be lvl 35 to ride a ptero, that's about 1/3 the level limit, and I think is just fine. The strength of the ptero is in how it is used. It's not a raid dino. If it is being used as such, the game code is the issue, not the dino itself. Fix rendering and net code and the problem goes away.

(Players are lucky that pteros are not aggressive, they should be, they are meat eaters, and never stuck to fish exclusively. And players are also lucky that devs did not code in the ability for wild dinos to sprint - I wish they would - that would be fun to listen to all that crying and moaning)

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11 minutes ago, Jamagh said:

I have been saying that for years.

It's been a problem since they first started making games that had pve and pvp side by side. Nerfs are almost always done exclusively to correct a perceived problem with pvp (not that there was a problem, just that they thought there was one). And the pve usually gets much worse as a result. In MMOs this caused players to abandon games. Same thing would occur with this game. I think one of the reason a lot of games went f2p is due to pvp nerfing causing pve problems that trashed server pops. IMO pvp populations are always less than that of pve pops, and a game cannot really survive and remain strong when it's just pvp players playing. (this is only when a game has pve and pvp elements and does not apply to games that are only pvp)

As an example, see what happened to SWG after combat nerfs, or LOTRO after those extreme character nerfs. Huge pop fall offs. They adjusted due to pvp (they may not admit it, but it was obvious).

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Just now, Probitas said:

It's been a problem since they first started making games that had pve and pvp side by side. Nerfs are almost always done exclusively to correct a perceived problem with pvp (not that there was a problem, just that they thought there was one). And the pve usually gets much worse as a result. In MMOs this caused players to abandon games. Same thing would occur with this game. I think one of the reason a lot of games went f2p is due to pvp nerfing causing pve problems that trashed server pops. IMO PVP populations are always less than that of PVE pops, and a game cannot really survive and remain strong when it's just PVP. (this is only when a game has pve and pvp elements and does not apply to games that are only pvp)

I totally agree. Been playing WoW since april of 05. I have seen so many nerfs that hit the pVE side so hard. I just don't understand why devs can't have a rule set that is, if the ability/weapons hits a -player it does XXXX. If it hits an NPC it does YYYY. Instead they do nerfs.

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7 minutes ago, Jamagh said:

I totally agree. Been playing WoW since april of 05. I have seen so many nerfs that hit the pVE side so hard. I just don't understand why devs can't have a rule set that is, if the ability/weapons hits a -player it does XXXX. If it hits an NPC it does YYYY. Instead they do nerfs.

Most of the problems are due to the studios laying off the people that know what they are doing so they can hire cheaper code monkeys, who then cannot finesse the code because they lack the skill and knowledge about the particular game involved. It was very evident in LOTRO. It's a big problem with most companies in North America. They want high quality work, but refuse to pay high quality wage. So talented people go elsewhere. This is why companies that used to have training programs (yes, that used to be a thing) no longer do, because they don't want to train someone who goes somewhere else. This of course is related to loyalty. Companies expect it from employees, but offer none in return.

Our parents and grandparents used to be able to work a job their whole life. That was because the people running those companies had a conscience and felt involved in their communities. Now companies are run by sociopaths who only feel tied to two things - shareholders and stock options. Even privately owned companies can suffer from this antisocial behavior.

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8 minutes ago, Probitas said:

Most of the problems are due to the studios laying off the people that know what they are doing so they can hire cheaper code monkeys, who then cannot finesse the code because they lack the skill and knowledge about the particular game involved. It was very evident in LOTRO. It's a big problem with most companies in North America. They want high quality work, but refuse to pay high quality wage. So talented people go elsewhere. This is why companies that used to have training programs (yes, that used to be a thing) no longer do, because they don't want to train someone who goes somewhere else. This of course is related to loyalty. Companies expect it from employees, but offer none in return.

Our parents and grandparents used to be able to work a job their whole life. That was because the people running those companies had a conscience and felt involved in their communities. Now companies are run by sociopaths who only feel tied to two things - shareholders and stock options. Even privately owned companies can suffer from this antisocial behavior.

Dude, I work as a janitor. You are preachin to the choir.

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2 hours ago, Argleksander said:

You make it sound like they are removing birds altogether, which is not the case.

You should actually read some of the threads and replies by people on these forums and reddit. Including the devs. They seem more inclined to outright remove flyers. There was like a 30 page thread on reddit about how Ptera's having more then 200 stam was imbalanced and that's how flyers should feel in Ark. 

The problem is, as evidenced by things like PvE bosses and Eels, I don't believe the developers actually play test their own content, nor do they know the difference between Artificial and Real difficulty. Let alone how to make either of those fun. 

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14 minutes ago, iAmE said:

You should actually read some of the threads and replies by people on these forums and reddit. Including the devs. They seem more inclined to outright remove flyers. There was like a 30 page thread on reddit about how Ptera's having more then 200 stam was imbalanced and that's how flyers should feel in Ark. 

The problem is, as evidenced by things like PvE bosses and Eels, I don't believe the developers actually play test their own content, nor do they know the difference between Artificial and Real difficulty. Let alone how to make either of those fun. 

I've noticed this.. between watching their fun little "skits" when new content comes out and how op or not op things are when they arrive.. there definitively seems to be a gap between what they see and what players see..  

As far as what to do with flyers.. argy seems to be in a good place.. quetz should be slower, maybe disallow it to carry larger tames.. ptera barrel roll should be an ability with a cool down, and remove the ability to grab,  make it a niche scout with the barrel roll being a burst damage so they can still snipe players but not spam it..

Can't forget the whole "stealing wyvern eggs" thing either,  unless they get hit with a speed nerf themselves,  assuming a speed/stamina nerf gets levelled across all flyers.. 

Just some of my thoughts..

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Stoked for the flyer nerfed, I just wish they would make other transportation methods more attractive. Rafts could be faster, have reverse and better camera options. Ground mounts could have their weight and speed buffed to be more attractive. Higher level beds could allow fast travel without losing your gear. poop like that.

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Just now, Ep1cM0nk3y said:

I've noticed this.. between watching their fun little "skits" when new content comes out and how op or not op things are when they arrive.. there definitively seems to be a gap between what they see and what players see..  

As far as what to do with flyers.. argy seems to be in a good place.. quetz should be slower, maybe disallow it to carry larger tames.. ptera barrel roll should be an ability with a cool down, and remove the ability to grab,  make it a niche scout with the barrel roll being a burst damage so they can still snipe players but not spam it..

Can't forget the whole "stealing wyvern eggs" thing either,  unless they get hit with a speed nerf themselves,  assuming a speed/stamina nerf gets levelled across all flyers.. 

Just some of my thoughts..

Realistically, as someone who plays exclusively PvP, the ONLY thing Flyers need to have addressed is picking. Anything further is just the developers acting on their own shaping the game to how/what they like.

Even Ptera's Barrel Roll is extremely over-exaggerated. It's good for PvE (But who cares if it's good for PvE, everything is good for PvE), and good for PvP on/in the rare cases that the person you picked popped a Parachute. That's about it. 

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5 hours ago, Lumitesi said:

 

 By making us use ground mounts the only content you're really making us face is bad terrain geometry/design together with a really bad following mechanic that males ground caravans not viable.

 

 

This should be the key argument in the hole process. if you going to make it more viable to make us walk everywhere, you better make the trex not get stuck on a pebble

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15 minutes ago, iAmE said:

Realistically, as someone who plays exclusively PvP, the ONLY thing Flyers need to have addressed is picking. Anything further is just the developers acting on their own shaping the game to how/what they like.

Even Ptera's Barrel Roll is extremely over-exaggerated. It's good for PvE (But who cares if it's good for PvE, everything is good for PvE), and good for PvP on/in the rare cases that the person you picked popped a Parachute. That's about it. 

So, curious here.. would you completely remove picking from flyers? This would add a HUGE layer of extra planning, longer excursions and increased likelihood of endangerment (lending itself to a more harsh, survival type feel), or would you partially remove it/limit it in some way? 

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6 minutes ago, Ep1cM0nk3y said:

So, curious here.. would you completely remove picking from flyers? This would add a HUGE layer of extra planning, longer excursions and increased likelihood of endangerment (lending itself to a more harsh, survival type feel), or would you partially remove it/limit it in some way? 

I would, personally, add "Weight" Requirements to pick players FROM SADDLED Dinos.

We're in space suits firing laser beams, it's beyond stupid to think no one has invented a bloody seatbelt. A Ptera shouldn't be picking you off a Bronto or Giga. A Quetz might be able to, but not a Ptera. 

 

I'ld do something like this:

 

Ptera can pick players (As in players that aren't on dinos. Just the player.) and small dinos.

Argeys can pick you off Medium tames (Like Ptera's, Raptors, Carnos and Such)

Quetzals can pick you off Large tames (Such as Paracers or Diplos)

Something along those lines. 

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27 minutes ago, iAmE said:

I would, personally, add "Weight" Requirements to pick players FROM SADDLED Dinos.

We're in space suits firing laser beams, it's beyond stupid to think no one has invented a bloody seatbelt. A Ptera shouldn't be picking you off a Bronto or Giga. A Quetz might be able to, but not a Ptera. 

 

I'ld do something like this:

 

Ptera can pick players (As in players that aren't on dinos. Just the player.) and small dinos.

Argeys can pick you off Medium tames (Like Ptera's, Raptors, Carnos and Such)

Quetzals can pick you off Large tames (Such as Paracers or Diplos)

Something along those lines. 

Gotcha.. I like your ideas, adding more requirements and laying more thinking down on a players part.

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First of all let me say I'm very glad to see so many people discussing this. I think it's very important and I'm hoping that we can help the devs make a better change.

3 hours ago, Argleksander said:

You make it sound like they are removing birds altogether, which is not the case. After i tamed a good argie i hardly use any other dinos (well, before quetz that is)

Metal run? Argie

Meat? Argie?

Wood, thatch, stone, hide etc etc etc? Argie

Nerfing their stats a little (like speed and weight) won't make them obsolete, but will give players a greater incentive to use their land dinos. 

Well have you read their official word on the matter? They think flyers trivialize content. How do you solve that? obviously the laziest and easy solution is to simply nerf them to the ground so that they are near useless. If they simply nerf their stamina or speed they will still trivialize content only a bit slower. This leads me to believe their course of action is to nerf them to near uselessness. Also you speak about carrying weight only. Of course you wont use anything other than birds. Have you tried making a Bronto caravan? I'll save you the trouble. It's incredibly frustrating and slow and it simply doesn't work at all. They will get stuck on each other, they will get stuck on tiny pebbles. You probably will ragequit. Yes you can do it with a Paracer instead but it will be the same, you will spend most of your time fighting against the ground not other dinos.

3 hours ago, Poltron said:

Flyers trivialize content. You want to travel to meet your friend, fast travel is there for you. The game is about survival, with every new additions, it is harder to survive, on your feet that is. Bring a low level ptera and you can bypass all those hot spots and even glitch most dinos and kill them effortlessly.

That is the worst idea/excuse I have read. Fast travel doesn't allow you to go take/get items. Also you need to be on the tribe/ally.

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6 hours ago, Lumitesi said:

Most Land mounts already trivialize most content. I mean, hop on a parasaur (considered by most the most useless Mount in the game) and with a few points in speed you can outrun a Rex. Let alone something fast like a saber or a carno. By making us use ground mounts the only content you're really making us face is bad terrain geometry/design together with a really bad following mechanic that males ground caravans not viable.

So, if I go tame a Parasaur right now, and use it to the same extent that you'd use your Ptera, you're certain I'd be trivializing content? With the Purlovia, Kapro, Microraptors, Alphas, Therizinosaurus, Allos and Gigas all present? You're certain I'd have the same survival ratio? Or is all of that a non-issue for flyers? The thing about the ground is you can run from one problem smack into another. The air and the ground aren't even comparable. 

6 hours ago, Lumitesi said:

Sometimes players WANT to trivialize some of the content. Sometimes I just wanna visit a friend's base on the other side of the Island. And I really don't wanna spend 30m just in the travels. It makes no sense. Everything is very time consuming in this game, you don't need to add travelling to that list.

You won't. A good Terror Bird, Bear or Thyla will get you there lickity-split. Or, heck, a Galli. 8 minutes, at the most

 

6 hours ago, Lumitesi said:

You already make me face your ground content way too much. This one is router in another flawed system, which is breeding. Anyone breeding carnivores knows that if you breed more than 3 at a time, most of your ingame time is spent out and about gathering meat for the babies. After spinning at least 2h a Day running around killing things and gathering meat, is it really a bad thing that I'm allowed to ignore these ground dinos when visiting friends? 

I'd just go kill a few Brontos and Paracers, stuff the meat in a fridge and just take it out when it's time to breed. That's hardly exhaustive ground content. 

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17 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

So, if I go tame a Parasaur right now, and use it to the same extent that you'd use your Ptera, you're certain I'd be trivializing content? With the Purlovia, Kapro, Microraptors, Alphas, Therizinosaurus, Allos and Gigas all present? You're certain I'd have the same survival ratio? Or is all of that a non-issue for flyers? The thing about the ground is you can run from one problem smack into another. The air and the ground aren't even comparable.

I did not say you could trivialize all content. I said that you could outrun a rex. and you can. You can outrun mostly anything. You just need to have your eyes open. Like on flyers right now if you have to go near or inside Redwood. And of course that if you're travelling on a ground mount you just go around mountains to avoid Allos and Gigas. I think that much is obvious. Once again that is even more time consuming as you can't go straight but have to go around the mountain. And that involves absolutely no skill or depth, it's just extending time needed.

 

17 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

You won't. A good Terror Bird, Bear or Thyla will get you there lickity-split. Or, heck, a Galli. 8 minutes, at the most

So you're telling me you can cross the whole Island in 8m with a Terror Bird or Thyla? Without putting every point in speed and making it absolutely useless for everything else? Also notice that if you have a mount that can do the whole island in 8m you're basically trivializing content again because not even a wild Giga can catch you. So I guess ground mounts should be nerfed too?

18 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

I'd just go kill a few Brontos and Paracers, stuff the meat in a fridge and just take it out when it's time to breed. That's hardly exhaustive ground content. 

Ok quick question, do you even breed bro? cause it doesn't seem like you do tbh.

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