Is Therizinosaurus good against bosses?

[DarthaNyan]

53 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

I do worry about their lower torpor versus a Rex but it hasn't been an issue to this point. 

Yuty's buff hard counters manticore's torpor.

Edit:
Just to give you a proof with numbers:

I did 3.8k torpor to 2 mammoths. Buffed by Yuty mammoth recovered whole 3.8k and the non-buffed one still had 3600 left.

[jrulie101]

I had ran a stat-calculator on our level 303 rexes; and assigned our rex-stat values to a therizino. 

Potential : (Rex, Lvl 341, Impr: 100%): HP: 25669.9 (56, 11); St: 2226 (43, 0); Ox: 690 (36, 0); Fo: 18720 (42, 0); We: 1044 (37, 0); Dm: 804.7% (57, 27); Sp: 120% (31, 0); To: 35563.7 (302);
Potential : (Theri, Lvl 374, Impr: 100%): HP: 21678.2 (56, 13); St: 1590 (43, 0); Ox: 690 (36, 0); Fo: 18720 (42, 0); We: 762.1 (37, 0); Dm: 1095.4% (57, 58); Sp: 120% (31, 0); To: 21223.7 (302);

At a first-glance, it appears that the rex is the better choice until we take a look at the advantage that herbivores have over carnivores:

• Burn Resistance
• Unaccounted for HP stored as Sweet-Cakes.
• Sweet-Cakes in Inventory are not calculated in damage related to percentages, only base-health is.

The Pro's of the Therizino (In this case):

Usable Weight: 762.1 - 100 = 662.1;
Stacks of Sweet-Cakes: 662.1 / 30(weight of one stack of sweet-cakes);
Amount of Sweet Cakes it can hold: 22 x 5 = 110.
Amount of Health in the therizinos inventory: 110 x 2,600.
Bear in mind, with all that health this therizino still has 1095.4% melee damage. 
+ It will receive less burn damage.
+ It will receive less percentage damage.

The adjusted comparison (In this case):

• Potential: (Rex, Lvl 374, Impr: 100%): HP: 77847.1 (56, 71); St: 2226 (43, 0); Ox: 690 (36, 0); Fo: 18720 (42, 0); We: 1044 (37, 0); Dm: 551.5% (57, 0); Sp: 120% (31, 0); To: 35563.7 (302);
   
• Potential(Virtually):  (Therizinosaur, Lvl 374, Impr: 100%): HP: 286000 (56, 317); St: 1590 (43, 0); Ox: 690 (36, 0); Fo: 18720 (42, 0); We: 762.1 (37, 0); Dm: 1095.4% (57, 58); Sp: 120% (31, 0); To: 21223.7 (302);

Although, for this to be smooth you have to have really high-quality armor on the therizinos to reduce damage in from the larger-foes and bosses to less than 86.6 incoming damage per second. A 125 ascendant therizinos saddle is 83.3% damage reduction. Imprints are valuable as well for damage reduction. The rider is also given the rider buff which includes an 30% reduction on incoming damage after the saddle-armor is applied.

So, lets say that a titan stomp has the base damage of 1000.  This is per-hit, not per-second.
Damage In:  1000 
Saddle Reduction: 1000 * 83.3% = 167
Adjusted Damage: 167
Imprint Buff Reduction: 167 * 30% = 50.1
Adjusted Damage: 116.9
Time between hits: Varies (Knockback to the therizino, driver avoiding in critical moments, titans pace in dealing damage.); Can become as slow as 5-8 seconds.

//--> With the amount of knockback that the therizinos receive, as long as you let it walk to you each and every-time that it knocks you outta the ball-park you can be assured that you have the 3-seconds to reduce DPS down to 38.9. I advice swapping back and forth to this method depending on the tames HP (if it falls below 50%). Fighting titans is a waste-of-sweet cake though. A good therizino does it better than a wyvern. A good giga does it hassle-free.

Conclusion: 
The therizino is able to have 5 times the health-pool of a rex, with twice as much melee damage, because weight is too part of the therizinos health pool, and health that is stored in weight is not accounted for in damage based on percentages. Therizinos are also burn resistant.

Some corrections were applied to my math (from the responses below): Cake heals for 2600, not 2100 and a 125 armored saddle is 83.3% damage reduction not 95%. 

I have been keeping up with the corrections to this below therefore this data-sheet is not entirely mine. I just attempted to make it easy for the readers of the forums.

 

 

 

[Onimusha759]

35 minutes ago, jrulie101 said:

I had ran a stat-calculator on our level 303 rexes; and assigned our rex-stat values to a therizino. 

Potential : (Rex, Lvl 341, Impr: 100%): HP: 25669.9 (56, 11); St: 2226 (43, 0); Ox: 690 (36, 0); Fo: 18720 (42, 0); We: 1044 (37, 0); Dm: 804.7% (57, 27); Sp: 120% (31, 0); To: 35563.7 (302);
Potential : (Theri, Lvl 374, Impr: 100%): HP: 21678.2 (56, 13); St: 1590 (43, 0); Ox: 690 (36, 0); Fo: 18720 (42, 0); We: 762.1 (37, 0); Dm: 1095.4% (57, 58); Sp: 120% (31, 0); To: 21223.7 (302);

At a first-glance, it appears that the rex is the better choice until we take a look at the advantage that herbivores have over carnivores:

• Burn Resistance
• Unaccounted for HP stored as Sweet-Cakes.
• Sweet-Cakes in Inventory are not calculated in damage related to percentages, only base-health is.

The Pro's of the Therizino (In this case):

Usable Weight: 762.1 - 100 = 662.1;
Stacks of Sweet-Cakes: 662.1 / 30(weight of one stack of sweet-cakes);
Amount of Sweet Cakes it can hold: 22 x 5 = 110.
Amount of Health in the therizinos inventory: 110 x 2,100 = 231,000 Health in Regens.
Bear in mind, with all that health this therizino still has 1095.4% melee damage. 
+ It will receive less burn damage.
+ It will receive less percentage damage.
 

The adjusted comparison (In this case):

• Potential: (Rex, Lvl 374, Impr: 100%): HP: 77847.1 (56, 71); St: 2226 (43, 0); Ox: 690 (36, 0); Fo: 18720 (42, 0); We: 1044 (37, 0); Dm: 551.5% (57, 0); Sp: 120% (31, 0); To: 35563.7 (302);
   
• Potential(Virtually):  (Therizinosaur, Lvl 374, Impr: 100%): HP: 230766.6 (56, 317); St: 1590 (43, 0); Ox: 690 (36, 0); Fo: 18720 (42, 0); We: 762.1 (37, 0); Dm: 1095.4% (57, 58); Sp: 120% (31, 0); To: 21223.7 (302);

Although, for this to be smooth you have to have really high-quality armor on the therizinos to reduce damage in from the larger-foes and bosses to less than 70 damage-in per second. 

Conclusion: 
The therizino is able to have 3-4 times the health-pool of a rex, with twice as much melee damage, because weight is too part of the therizinos health pool, and health that is stored in weight is not accounted for in damage based on percentages. Therizinos are also burn resistant.

 

 

 

The dragons DoT is hard set.  The theriz will receive no protection from the DoT.  It only reduces the impact dmg of the firebreath, which with good saddles doesnt really matter.  Weve all came to the conclusion the theriz is better, but only because of the cake.

[jrulie101]

8 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

The dragons DoT is hard set.  The theriz will receive no protection from the DoT.  It only reduces the impact dmg of the firebreath, which with good saddles doesnt really matter.  Weve all came to the conclusion the theriz is better, but only because of the cake.

They do receive a reduction but the reduction that they do receive differs because of the health system. DoT is percentage-based damage, I believe it is 20% of the tames HP. At a base HP of 21k the damage received is 4,200. Thats different than a Rex. The rex of 40, 50, or 60k HP will lose between 8k ~ 12k HP. Of course this depends on the cap of the damage. However, we can see how the use of sweet-cakes protects tames from percentile-based damage attacks. Most the health, is in the inventory not in the stat. Inventory and Stats... The therizino can have a total of 286,000 HP (In my case of stats) where 265,000 HP was not calculated in "percentile based-damage".

Saddles, I believe they are still usable against bite, impact damages, etc. The boss seems to test-so many forms of damage that I would go in, full-suite every-time. That boss is hard. Really hard. That is because its technique. 

Lava Rivers, Tames on Player-Target, Ptera's, Dimos, Fire-Damage, Impact Damage, Explosion Damage... So much of that fight is technique. Its not hard, its just not like the other bosses. Most-first timers run a circus act through there regardless of theriz or rexes. Our theriz had 2-stacks of suite cakes and died in 5 ~ 10 minutes... It was as if they had constant fire under them and as soon as the cake went, so did they. (10 x 30) / 60 = 5 minutes.

[Onimusha759]

5 minutes ago, jrulie101 said:

They do receive a reduction but the reduction that they do receive differs because of the health system. DoT is percentage-based damage, I believe it is 20% of the tames HP. At a base HP of 21k the damage received is 4,200. Thats different than a Rex. The rex of 40, 50, or 60k HP will lose between 8k ~ 12k HP. Of course this depends on the cap of the damage. However, we can see how the use of sweet-cakes protects tames from percentile-based damage attacks. Most the health, is in the inventory not in the stat. Inventory and Stats... The therizino can have a total of 230766.6 HP (In my case of stats) where 209766.6 HP was not calculated in "percentile based-damage".

Right and thats the cake just doing its healing.  It has nothing to do with the theriz getting a fire resistance buff.  Try it without the cakes and the theriz will receive the full 20%

[jrulie101]

8 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

The dragons DoT is hard set.  The theriz will receive no protection from the DoT.  It only reduces the impact dmg of the firebreath, which with good saddles doesnt really matter.  Weve all came to the conclusion the theriz is better, but only because of the cake.

Also, it depends on what-for:

40 sweet-cakes per therizino is such a chore for a full-20 minutes of outstanding health-pool. While the Their has more potential, its well cared for, and well cared for creatures take that much more prep. I would have to say its well-deserved TLC (tender-love and care). 

Often, rexes are going to be the better-choice. Also, Rexes have WAY better AOE than a therizino. Therizinos are tricky with ads. Perfect for their own survivability. Not really good at protecting the people. When people in the arena are dead, then so are the tames.

In addition, herbivores are better, not just theriz, theriz are just one of the best herbivores in base damage. 

[DarthaNyan]

1 hour ago, Onimusha759 said:

Amount of Health in the therizinos inventory: 110 x 2,100 = 231,000 Health in Regens.

Cake recovers 2600 hp: 500 instantly and up to 2100(10%) over time.

1 hour ago, Onimusha759 said:

The dragons DoT is hard set.  The theriz will receive no protection from the DoT.  It only reduces the impact dmg of the firebreath, which with good saddles doesnt really matter.  Weve all came to the conclusion the theriz is better, but only because of the cake.

True, but then there are also fireballs and initial breath damage as you said. Every bit matters.

[Onimusha759]

1 hour ago, DarthaNyan said:

Cake recovers 2600 hp: 500 instantly and up to 2100(10%) over time.

True, but then there are also fireballs and initial breath damage as you said. Every bit matters.

With hi saddles plus mate and yuty buff idk if it would let you resist anymore, it might tho.  A 100 saddle offers 68.8% Resistance to impact dmg roughly, i dont remember the exact number but i think its like 16.7% per 25 armor.  Then yuty and mate both do roughly 25% a piece.  Gotta be a hard cap somewhere besides the cap on saddles at 100.  All the experienced players know the only really important dmg is the DoT, without the DoT it be exactly like the 2 other bosses which arnt exactly hard for even rexes to destroy without healing.

[DarthaNyan]

2 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

A 100 saddle offers 68.8% Resistance to impact dmg roughly, i dont remember the exact number but i think its like 16.7% per 25 armor.

its 25/(25+armor) for dinos. So 100 armor saddle is 80% reduction.

[Onimusha759]

32 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

its 25/(25+armor) for dinos. So 100 armor saddle is 80% reduction.

Thank you!  I remember reading it was around 17% back  around rags release but idk how old the topic was.  I noticed i was more resistant then what that would be tho.  When was it changed?  It may have been quite a while.  So 25 armor is 17.5% resistance?

[DarthaNyan]

1 hour ago, Onimusha759 said:

Thank you!  I remember reading it was around 17% back  around rags release but idk how old the topic was.  I noticed i was more resistant then what that would be tho.  When was it changed?  It may have been quite a while.  So 25 armor is 17.5% resistance?

25/(25+armor) means that:
25 armor saddle is 50% resistance
50 armor saddle is 66.7% resistance
75 armor - 75%
100 armor - 80%
125 armor - 83.3%
etc.

Btw, for players formula is 100/(100 + armor).

It has been that way since the very beginning.

[Onimusha759]

52 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

25/(25+armor) means that:
25 armor saddle is 50% resistance
50 armor saddle is 66.7% resistance
75 armor - 75%
100 armor - 80%
125 armor - 83.3%
etc.

Btw, for players formula is 100/(100 + armor).

It has been that way since the very beginning.

Very nice thank you.  So its 100x(1-(25/(25+armor))).  Since 25/50=.5 and 1-.5=.5 and .5x100=50.  With the 100 armor it would be 25/125=.2 and 1-.2=.8 and .8x100=80 from your example.  Thank you a lot

[DeMartian]

I know theri's attacks ignore armor. Do any of the bosses have any natural armor, and does the theri's attack penetrate it (especially the dragon)?

[Onimusha759]

8 minutes ago, DeMartian said:

I know theri's attacks ignore armor. Do any of the bosses have any natural armor, and does the theri's attack penetrate it (especially the dragon)?

Theres no armor on bosses

[GeoSeb]

Is there a short number for Theri stats for fighting the dragon on gamma/beta ? + minimum saddle

Thx

[Boubbin]

2 hours ago, GeoSeb said:

Is there a short number for Theri stats for fighting the dragon on gamma/beta ? + minimum saddle

Thx

did medium dragon with 50/50 (dmg/health) after hatch theris with 144-200 saddles + cakes and lost all, killed with shotguns. This prolly because we failed whistles and tanking.
Theris are leveled to 20k health / 720-780 dmg

Alpha spider/ape is over in 1-2min with these theris taking max 1k dmg (with yuti)

[jrulie101]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 5:47 AM, Boubbin said:

did medium dragon with 50/50 (dmg/health) after hatch theris with 144-200 saddles + cakes and lost all, killed with shotguns. This prolly because we failed whistles and tanking.
Theris are leveled to 20k health / 720-780 dmg

Alpha spider/ape is over in 1-2min with these theris taking max 1k dmg (with yuti)

Right and the same-situation plays out with Rexes frequently. I would not consider a change of mount. So much of that boss is technique. The goal is to whistle passive when the boss fly's so that the therizinos is not chasing the boss across that map and then put them back on player target whenever the boss lands. Its all about agro control. 

As for saddle, nope. Its always got to be a good saddle. The sweet-cake method Is broken whenever Incoming-DPS exceeds HPS. You have to do EVERYTHING that you can to reduce DPS below 86.6. Even if some of the dragons attacks are percentile based there are attacks that are not percentile based (like Bite). Make your imprints, put ascendant saddles on the theriz, level them to 21k HP, load up at least 4-stacks of sweet-cakes on them (2-stacks if your an expert). And then make them stand in place whenever dragon is flying. Make them attack whenever the dragon has landed near them. Use ascendant shotguns and deer's for the riders.

[jrulie101]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 2:53 AM, GeoSeb said:

Is there a short number for Theri stats for fighting the dragon on gamma/beta ? + minimum saddle

Thx

You can do it with 150 'tamed therizinos. You cannot do it without a good saddle. Saddles reduce damage, without damage reduction the sweet-cake game is broken. Incoming Damage has to be reduced below 86.6 in order for cakes to have a stable regeneration effect. Whether you use theriz or rexes; if you do not control that bosses agro, then the tames you bring in are as good as dead. Most of that fight is actually controlling agro. I've shot RPGs off at the boss while in a boss fight with my theriz because I was annoyed with the adds and because a strong-supply of sweet-cake out regens just about any damage they will receive.

Makes me wonder how a fleet of passive kentras would do in that fight.

[Onimusha759]

27 minutes ago, jrulie101 said:

You can do it with 150 'tamed therizinos. You cannot do it without a good saddle. Saddles reduce damage, without damage reduction the sweet-cake game is broken. Incoming Damage has to be reduced below 86.6 in order for cakes to have a stable regeneration effect. Whether you use theriz or rexes; if you do not control that bosses agro, then the tames you bring in are as good as dead. Most of that fight is actually controlling agro. I've shot RPGs off at the boss while in a boss fight with my theriz because I was annoyed with the adds and because a strong-supply of sweet-cake out regens just about any damage they will receive.

Makes me wonder how a fleet of passive kentras would do in that fight.

Iv wondered that aswell lol

[jrulie101]

On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 9:40 AM, yekrucifixion187 said:

My current Theri's stand at 21k hp and 700+ melee. 

I've run them exclusively on Rag so far and in conjunction with my alliance's Rex's but they have performed great (beta run only for them to this point). Majority of our Rex's are 30k hp and have 100+ armor saddles. After a fight an unridden Rex will typically be down about 5k hp if it didn't get tangled with Golem's. The Theri's, every time, have come out down no more than 2k hp and more likely less than 1k hp. They do have 122-124 armor saddles and normally have only consumed 1 to 2 veggie cakes. 

As @DarthaNyan mentioned their lower profile helps too. Now we haven't ran an exclusively Theri fight yet so it may change but so far they haven't gotten stuck on the Golem's. Instead they have scooted right by them to get to the boss. Whether that is due to Rex's being stuck and occupying the Golem's or their lower profile i won't be able to tell until we run an all Theri fight. 

I do worry about their lower torpor versus a Rex but it hasn't been an issue to this point. 

These are my personal observations running official PS4 PvE fights. 

This comes back down to rates. 

Rex is 1 Torpor Loss Per Second
Therizino is 10 Torpor Loss Per Second

// So again, with therizinos its not about how buffy or beefy the creature is, its more about consumption/rates/regeneration. You cannot compare the stat-system of a therizino with a rex because of all of the therizinos utilities/features. Fast torpor depletion, 52 base-damage, sweet-cake eaters, the nature of sweet cakes reduces percentage base damages (health is more solid), and they only require 21k HP in order to make the most use out of sweet cakes. They have 10x the detox ability a rex does as well. It is these features that put the rex to shame when up against a therizino. It is these reasons why a high-level rex cannot keep up with a post-tame therizino. In Island Standards a 35k HP Rex loses so much melee potential compared to a therizino that has 21k hp and the extra 14k hp in its inventory. Rexes receive more incoming damage due to the nature of their health-pool being statistically rather than materialistically invested in.

... but ... thats TLC (Tender Love and Care) speaking. 50 beehives under my base right now. We still hate-sweet cake week for boss-raids. 

A good therizino is a game-of-rates and not a game-of-power; a strong magician(intelligence) always beats the brute-tank. It's not required though, good skill with a good rex is suffice.... until farming alpha-brood/alpha-drag for element. right, farming the alphas (5-fights back to back.). We do that here. Alpha-Brood-mother is a 2 minute fight against 900% melee theriz.

>>> Try it, run a test with 21k HP, Rest points in melee theriz. Put 5 stacks of sweet-cake in a therizino. Level the rex to 35k HP. Again, put the rest of the points in melee. Then compare base damages. force feed both of them biotoxin until K.O'd, and then compare detox rates for both species. The therizino should wind up on-top. Especially considering that they can have 19 stacks of sweet-cakes.


 

[DarthaNyan]

45 minutes ago, jrulie101 said:

This comes back down to rates. 

Rex is 1 Torpor Loss Per Second
Therizino is 10 Torpor Loss Per Second

Torpor is never an issue because Yuty.

[Onimusha759]

On April 22, 2018 at 6:39 PM, DarthaNyan said:

its 25/(25+armor) for dinos. So 100 armor saddle is 80% reduction.

I think tlc2 changed the armor algorithm, before tlc2 my dino received around half dmg with the 25 armor.  Now tho, after tlc2, when i did my rex vs spino match their dmg was only reduced a 3rd in the saddle test.  Both had 25 armor.

[DarthaNyan]

22 minutes ago, Onimusha759 said:

I think tlc2 changed the armor algorithm, before tlc2 my dino received around half dmg with the 25 armor.  Now tho, after tlc2, when i did my rex vs spino match their dmg was only reduced a 3rd in the saddle test.  Both had 25 armor.

I have tested Therizino's armor piercing property on claw attack after TLC2 in the other thread:
https://survivetheark.com/index.php?/forums/topic/319176-why-do-people-think-therizinosaurus-ignore-saddle-armor/&do=findComment&comment=1867593

if you ignore "crits" that only happen against saddled dinosfor some reason, then damage reduction from saddles follows the formula precisely.

[Onimusha759]

32 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

I have tested Therizino's armor piercing property on claw attack after TLC2 in the other thread:
https://survivetheark.com/index.php?/forums/topic/319176-why-do-people-think-therizinosaurus-ignore-saddle-armor/&do=findComment&comment=1867593

if you ignore "crits" that only happen against saddled dinosfor some reason, then damage reduction from saddles follows the formula precisely.

No piercing was involved since it was a rex and spino fight.  My rex did exactly 311 to the spino before armor, after the armor was applied it was over 200, i think it was 207 or 208.  That was standard dmg, every hit was like that.

[toxico]

U can use them if u have breaded them good,  few on my server using and dont complain about them