What are the limits of breeding?

[GigasSuck]

A while back when breeding came out, there were people joking about making super dodos and such. It was an amusing concept and all, but does breeding have limits? Can you breed dodos infinitely until their stats can size up to a rex or something? At the time I thought breeding was a nice end game progression, but now I've been doing research on inherited stats and it seems like there's a level cap(1562 on the wiki) on officials at which point breeding cannot surpass. But does this affect the maximum stats? Will a dodo never statistically outdo a mid level carno despite a breeder's best efforts?

I hope there isn't a real hard cap to breeding improvements, because it pretty much means only apex dinos are worth breeding, since mid tier dinos and below will never surpass them as much as a breeder tries.

[Lockjaw]

You can get some bonus levels through mutations so technically there is no hard cap, but as I understand it you only get a couple extra levels per mutation. So realistically the soft cap is the cap. There really isn't any good reason to breed anything below apex dinos unless you just like the lower-tier dino and want to do it.

[MrJonesDK]

Well if you play on a lvl max wild dino 150 server, the dino could get 150 +41 lvls in one stat. There are 7 stats on a dino. So if you breed the top 7 stats into one, you could get a 1337 dino. This would be without mutation that gives aprox +2 from every mutation. I think it can mutated 20 times. = (20x2)*7 stats = 280 lvls + 1337 = 1617 on a DODO.

 

Other dinos get +71 lvls from kibble. Then you could do the math.

This in in theory... I never seen a dino with more than 42 in stat. Tho I know someone out there have been more lucky than me.

So a perfect dodo without mutation would properly be 42*7 = lvl 294 on a 150 lvl wild server with 1x taming.

[Sh4rk]

2 hours ago, MrJonesDK said:

Well if you play on a lvl max wild dino 150 server, the dino could get 150 +41 lvls in one stat. There are 7 stats on a dino. So if you breed the top 7 stats into one, you could get a 1337 dino. This would be without mutation that gives aprox +2 from every mutation. I think it can mutated 20 times. = (20x2)*7 stats = 280 lvls + 1337 = 1617 on a DODO.

 

Other dinos get +71 lvls from kibble. Then you could do the math.

This in in theory... I never seen a dino with more than 42 in stat. Tho I know someone out there have been more lucky than me.

So a perfect dodo without mutation would properly be 42*7 = lvl 294 on a 150 lvl wild server with 1x taming.

your formula is a bit off there lol

what your formula is saying, is that you can mutate each stat 20 times (20 mutations giving 2 levels each, applied to each of the 7 stats)

im not expert on breeding but i know that there can be 20 mutations at most. assuming every mutation is a stat mutation, and that it gives 2 levels, that would apply 2 levels into any of the 7 stats one single time per mutation. so really that be 40 levels plus the hatched level without the mutations. again, im no expert on this, i could be a bit off too, but we certainly cannot get creatures over a thousand lol

 

[MrJonesDK]

If you breed one dino with only high health and breed it until it gets 20x mutated in hp.. after that you have a dino with high damage and do it with that also.. I wont even go into how long that would take.. but its possible. After that you breed them into 1 breed with all the high stats. The new breed with all the 20x mutated in very stat cannot get more mutations tho.

Its possible to combine to breeds that used each of their 20x mutation.

[Scotty8319]

5 hours ago, Sh4rk said:

im not expert on breeding but i know that there can be 20 mutations at most.

As of now the stats can pass the 20 mark. It's actually kind of misleading in a way as it's an addition of all stats in the line, or so it seems. Here's an example of a monkey on an Official PC PvE server:

47 out of 20 mutations on his father's side, but of course the monkey in question does not show all of those 47 mutations. And he is just one of many I have that have surpassed the 20 mutations line. I can show screenshots of more than a dozen others with 22, 30, 40 and even 60 mutations where 20 was thought to be the max. It brings even more confusion to the breeding system now.

[VicRattlehed]

8 hours ago, MrJonesDK said:

This in in theory... I never seen a dino with more than 42 in stat. Tho I know someone out there have been more lucky than me.
 

I thought the same, but i got 45 into a sharks melee the other night. I think in theory every level could go into 1 stat (granted the likelyhood of that is close to zero). If by some act of god you had a line of every stat with all 250+ levels into it the you could get those super dodos. Good luck with that though.

[MrJonesDK]

If you breed a 20 mutation dino with its own baby that have the same 20 mutations as well, it would count as 40 mutations on the next breed..

[d1nk]

19 minutes ago, Scotty8319 said:

As of now the stats can pass the 20 mark. It's actually kind of misleading in a way as it's an addition of all stats in the line, or so it seems. Here's an example of a monkey on an Official PC PvE server:

47 out of 20 mutations on his father's side, but of course the monkey in question does not show all of those 47 mutations. And he is just one of many I have that have surpassed the 20 mutations line. I can show screenshots of more than a dozen others with 22, 30, 40 and even 60 mutations where 20 was thought to be the max. It brings even more confusion to the breeding system now.

Holy mutations ape man!

[Scotty8319]

Just now, d1nk said:

Holy mutations ape man!

Monkey man.   He's from a mass breeding colony that's left to wander on a smaller island. The adults breed randomly, the babies are born, and the mesopithecus are (currently) the only species in Ark that can raise themselves from birth to maturity - whether they have been claimed or not. 

But yeah, some of them have incredibly high mutations showing on their in-game pedigrees. It's kind of crazy. It's only a matter of time before they start sprouting tails from their foreheads or something I'm sure. lol

[CyanicEmber]

I do wonder how much Torpor a fully levelled melee bred Pachycephalosaurus with 100% imprint could dole out.. 

[GigasSuck]

4 hours ago, Scotty8319 said:

As of now the stats can pass the 20 mark. It's actually kind of misleading in a way as it's an addition of all stats in the line, or so it seems. Here's an example of a monkey on an Official PC PvE server:

47 out of 20 mutations on his father's side, but of course the monkey in question does not show all of those 47 mutations. And he is just one of many I have that have surpassed the 20 mutations line. I can show screenshots of more than a dozen others with 22, 30, 40 and even 60 mutations where 20 was thought to be the max. It brings even more confusion to the breeding system now.

What do you mean by the monkey not showing all 47 mutations? Does that mean that the individual has gained 47 stat bonuses, but only 20 actually have in game effect? Does this mean that mutations are the only way to go beyond the hard cap on breeding or the numbers are just a GUI glitch for show?

Using the Creature Stats Calculation page on the wiki on a hypothetical dodo's health stat, we get (40*(1+191*0.2)+0.07*0.14)*(1+1*0*0.44)*(1+71*0.054*0.2), which equals to a wild 150 level max taming effectiveness dodo, turned level 191 post tame with all it's stats coincidentally in health, with all subsequent 71 level up points dumped in health, coming out to 2770 HP. A quick calculation on Dododex shows that a Carno with 23 wild levels in health surpasses this master race bred dodo in tankability while likely having atleast 7 times the damage(base damage 35 vs 5). Since this is the max health and further breeding can only improve the other stats, this is it. This is as tanky as the dodo species will ever get.

Modifying the chance of finding and taming a dodo so that all 191 levels are put into health based on the wiki breeding page, with the formula 1/((1/7)^191), you'd need to tame on average 2.59*10^161 level 150 wild dodos before you can find one with all stats in health. Due to new species diluting spawns and most of the newer powercreeped dinos killing dodos faster than they can spawn, it'd take about 30 minutes on the best exploring mounts to find a level 150 dodo, and 13 minutes to tame one. Multiply these 43 minutes by the number of dodos you need to go through, and it'd take 2.12*10^157 straight years of looking for dodos, with no pause for sleep, food, or real life before you'd be able to get a dodo with max health. That is longer than the natural lifespan of a black hole, and doesn't include breeding times either.

This is fuc king ridiculous. You can spend a third of the maximum age of the universe grinding for a master race dodo, and 3 naked guys can punch out a carno, tame it in two hours, and have your efforts be moot. All I want out of breeding is the sense of progress through grind, a better end game past time than tek tier garbage and alpha tribe passive aggressive drama.

 

[thehalfginger]

13 hours ago, Sh4rk said:

your formula is a bit off there lol

what your formula is saying, is that you can mutate each stat 20 times (20 mutations giving 2 levels each, applied to each of the 7 stats)

im not expert on breeding but i know that there can be 20 mutations at most. assuming every mutation is a stat mutation, and that it gives 2 levels, that would apply 2 levels into any of the 7 stats one single time per mutation. so really that be 40 levels plus the hatched level without the mutations. again, im no expert on this, i could be a bit off too, but we certainly cannot get creatures over a thousand lol

 

you can defiantly get a dino over a thousand but the chances are insainly rare occurance you would literally have to get 6 dino that put all of its wild stats and tamed stats into one stat and then breed them all together but you legitimately have a better chance at winning the lotto then finding even 1 dino to do that but that chances are stil there 

[Scotty8319]

13 hours ago, GigasSuck said:

What do you mean by the monkey not showing all 47 mutations?

Exactly that... he himself is not showing 47 different mutations - his particular male ancestral bloodline has had a combination of 47 different mutations but this monkey in question is not carrying 47 mutations himself. In fact, he is not showing ANY mutations that are obvious for his colony, and no stat mutations which differ in any noticeable or unnatural way from his colony mates. He was rather unimpressive all the way around, to be honest.