Primitive Plus and Ark Transfers?

[WyohKnott]

Do not ever implement this feature.... EVER. You want to encourage more chinese to mass dinos on different servers and then blitz wipe and control a server then do this.

[fxg]

On 27/02/2017 at 5:17 PM, WyohKnott said:

Do not ever implement this feature.... EVER. You want to encourage more chinese to mass dinos on different servers and then blitz wipe and control a server then do this.

Im ok with this feature now, i think it opens many doors, but i would like to see some protection, like ip regions European people only can enter and transfer to European servers. That would be nice!

I want to make rides but i like my server and everyone on it hehehe, so i need to go somewhere else to do raids and i cant sustain multiple servers at the same time, i have a job lol  

[johnm81]

On 2/27/2017 at 11:17 AM, WyohKnott said:

Do not ever implement this feature.... EVER. You want to encourage more chinese to mass dinos on different servers and then blitz wipe and control a server then do this.

You are looking only at half the equation. Yes transfer open up the risk of invasion. Not just from Chinese, but anyone. The other side of the equation is it allows small tribes or solo players to flee abusive alpha tribes. 

How often have I been wiped from alphas? Many. Does it matter to me if the person wiping me is my alpha or another alpha? No wiped is wiped. If anything off server invaders are better because they leave allowing you to rebuild vs a native alpha who keeps you from starting again.

Lastly, I fail to understand why we are so afraid of pvp on a pvp server? Shouldn't we be playing on pve servers if conflict is so terrifying?

 

PS Yes I necro'd the thread but its my thread....

[TheSpirit]

13 hours ago, johnm81 said:

You are looking only at half the equation. Yes transfer open up the risk of invasion. Not just from Chinese, but anyone. The other side of the equation is it allows small tribes or solo players to flee abusive alpha tribes. 

How often have I been wiped from alphas? Many. Does it matter to me if the person wiping me is my alpha or another alpha? No wiped is wiped. If anything off server invaders are better because they leave allowing you to rebuild vs a native alpha who keeps you from starting again.

Lastly, I fail to understand why we are so afraid of pvp on a pvp server? Shouldn't we be playing on pve servers if conflict is so terrifying?

 

PS Yes I necro'd the thread but its my thread....

Fleeing example is always ridiculous to me. It takes 3h to level to 60 nowadays. You want transfers and all the poop that comes with them to save 3h in a survival game?

PvPvE. If you want strictly PvP, play SoTF. THAT is PvP. PvPvE is how this game is supposed to be played. Now only alphas can play full game, others are left with scraps, because if they build big enough, even if they are non-hostile, they will be wiped. It's really in developers hands to make this game either "kill or be killed" CoD nonsense or actually complex strategic and interesting game.

[johnm81]

13 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

Fleeing example is always ridiculous to me. It takes 3h to level to 60 nowadays. You want transfers and all the poop that comes with them to save 3h in a survival game?

PvPvE. If you want strictly PvP, play SoTF. THAT is PvP. PvPvE is how this game is supposed to be played. Now only alphas can play full game, others are left with scraps, because if they build big enough, even if they are non-hostile, they will be wiped. It's really in developers hands to make this game either "kill or be killed" CoD nonsense or actually complex strategic and interesting game.

You must be unaware that transfers also allow dinos and structures to travel with you so that remark about leveling to 60 is meaningless. 

So yes imo ability to flee a server is profound and worth the risk of my alpha having to face other alphas vs newbs in thatch aka "invasions".

[TheSpirit]

14 hours ago, johnm81 said:

You must be unaware that transfers also allow dinos and structures to travel with you so that remark about leveling to 60 is meaningless. 

So yes imo ability to flee a server is profound and worth the risk of my alpha having to face other alphas vs newbs in thatch aka "invasions".

Why would you flee a server if you are able to live there? Your argument was that you can move after being wiped. You often get wiped and they leave your dinos alive? Cause that is pretty much a not so bad alpha.

Yeah... Invasions only touch alphas and thatch. Suuure...

[johnm81]

19 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

Your argument was that you can move after being wiped. 

No. Fleeing a server prior to being wiped is the goal. Where did I say otherwise? But with that said many times you lose a base and all you had only able to escape on the back of your prized bird. This has personally happened to me twice. 

Most of the times in the past when I fled from a server it was after the alpha coming out stating that all tribes had to leave and begun wiping them. After the first or second tribe was obliterated I gathered my stuff and transferred out. To deny a small tribe the ability to dodge such a native alpha is just wrong and again, imo worth the risk of a invader doing to my tribe what most native alphas were already doing.

[TheSpirit]

2 hours ago, johnm81 said:

No. Fleeing a server prior to being wiped is the goal. Where did I say otherwise? But with that said many times you lose a base and all you had only able to escape on the back of your prized bird. This has personally happened to me twice. 

Most of the times in the past when I fled from a server it was after the alpha coming out stating that all tribes had to leave and begun wiping them. After the first or second tribe was obliterated I gathered my stuff and transferred out. To deny a small tribe the ability to dodge such a native alpha is just wrong and again, imo worth the risk of a invader doing to my tribe what most native alphas were already doing.

So why play PvP if you are just running away? This is weird to me. Without transfers you HAVE to build community and alliances to protect the server when new hostile tribe rises up. With server transfers it's just "oh they said they are wiping, ok, I go now". What is the fun in that.

Also, and I argued this many times, in non-primitive+ officials transfers work (lets say they work), because there are so many servers. We are talking about what? 20-25 PvP servers? Does it seem impossible that ALL of them will be taken over? Not to me. Especially, when we have almost impenetrable safes, so even if the big tribe is raided they have everything to build up again in a day. Now I know there are good PvPers, but "good" is not enough when someone has numbers over you. ARK is the game of numbers, the more you have the more can stay online the more power you have. I think transfers would allow huge no lifing tribe/tribes to take over most of the P+ servers. Before tribe took over server, wiped everyone, server died, they raise their gigas and other insane dinos and they are trapped in the jail they themselves created, you want them to go free so you can flee from them...  And on the other hand fighting a big tribe is surely fun, but this game has other aspects that this kind of war does not allow.
And I cannot emphasize this enough PVP is THE MAIN game. Everything that is in a game is there so it would be used in MAIN game. Not only pteras and quetzes, maybe occasional giga, EVERYTHING.

[johnm81]

15 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

So why play PvP if you are just running away? This is weird to me. Without transfers you HAVE to build community and alliances to protect the server when new hostile tribe rises up. With server transfers it's just "oh they said they are wiping, ok, I go now". What is the fun in that.

Who said just because server transfers exist you have to run away? Its an option. Server transfers can also be a weapon to strike back at an alpha. Not all about running. Its like when you stated that I'd only transfer after being wiped thus whats the point. You seem to make up lots of things that I never said....

15 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

Also, and I argued this many times, in non-primitive+ officials transfers work (lets say they work), because there are so many servers. We are talking about what? 20-25 PvP servers? Does it seem impossible that ALL of them will be taken over? Not to me. Especially, when we have almost impenetrable safes, so even if the big tribe is raided they have everything to build up again in a day.

I believe its more like 35 servers and that's just the pvp ones. But still lets go with your 25 number because I'm not sure. It is irrelevant because with the less servers there is proportionally less players and thus less alphas...ect.

 

15 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

 I think transfers would allow huge no lifing tribe/tribes to take over most of the P+ servers. 

This is completely opinion. A thing not even seen on official servers that granted have a lot more servers but also have proportionally a lot more players. What we have seen is most mega tribes can only control a few servers.

[TheSpirit]

16 hours ago, johnm81 said:

Who said just because server transfers exist you have to run away? Its an option. Server transfers can also be a weapon to strike back at an alpha. Not all about running. Its like when you stated that I'd only transfer after being wiped thus whats the point. You seem to make up lots of things that I never said....

And you don't address the real point I'm trying to make. You write that transfers are good way to flee from abusive alpha, then it's a good way to flee abusive alpha that is not abusive to you yet, then it's a good tool to attack alphas. If these are not your points what the hell is? 
My main point is the importance of server community and transfers completely destroy that. There are no politics, no conflicts only mindless farming and mindless destruction. And if you lose... you can build up sin some other server, go back and destroy someone who cannot ever expect an attack. I call bs. This is completely made for big tribes that can defend 24/7. Sure, big tribes get wiped because of transfer, but for every big tribe wiped, there will be 20 small tribes wiped just because. This is not sustainable early player experience.

16 hours ago, johnm81 said:

I believe its more like 35 servers and that's just the pvp ones. But still lets go with your 25 number because I'm not sure. It is irrelevant because with the less servers there is proportionally less players and thus less alphas...ect.

This is completely opinion. A thing not even seen on official servers that granted have a lot more servers but also have proportionally a lot more players. What we have seen is most mega tribes can only control a few servers.

I don't know if you ever ran into people playing in the east side of the world (can't say the c word), but every new addition to the game makes them surge the servers that got the change. This happened after P+ went to official mod status, after a month there was only one server controlled by English speaking tribe. Then P+ went to poop and then started to slowly revive again. More players = more players who are there just to "own" server. I say let them stay in that server, don't spread the plague that they are.
You forget that this is P+. Controlling servers is much easier job. Harder to tame gigas, no blowing up of bases. Knowing what kind of people mostly play P+, I would say 2 experienced people per server could easily control it after initial wipe.
The thing with officials is that there are so many of them that you will eventually find one with alpha that actually takes care of the server population. But what ratio is that 1/20 1/30? Take that ratio to P+ and you will have 1 server. 

[johnm81]

6 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

And you don't address the real point I'm trying to make. You write that transfers are good way to flee from abusive alpha, then it's a good way to flee abusive alpha that is not abusive to you yet, then it's a good tool to attack alphas. If these are not your points what the hell is? 

Because your point is strawman in nature. I write transfers are good way to flee. I write they are a good way to strike back as well. And by the way, if you believe the only way to know if an alpha is going to wipe you is after the fact you must be new. Yet you construe my statements to mean many things I never stated and waste both our time as you counter the imagined.

So let me distill it for you. Transfers serve the smaller tribes greatly. Because they add nothing new in the terms of being attacked as we are already under attack. While at the same time grant us a powerful method of dodging loss, mitigating loss, and launching insurgent warfare upon alphas by keeping supply line assets hidden.

6 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

My main point is the importance of server community and transfers completely destroy that. There are no politics, no conflicts only mindless farming and mindless destruction. And if you lose... you can build up sin some other server, go back and destroy someone who cannot ever expect an attack. I call bs.

I was once on a server. And the alpha was pretty nice. Built many 'public works'. But also survived many invasions and did a lot of invading itself. The way it achieved this is it had a strong relationship and fostered many of the other tribes into what it referred to as beta tribes. These beta tribes specialized in server defense esp when the alpha was attacking a perceived threat. Now the ethics of the alphas aggressive nature aside, there was a really strong community between the alpha and its beta tribes. It was the need for self preservation that fueled this 'community'.

I am not saying your experience and how it differed from mine is wrong. What I am saying is your assumption that all things are as you have experience when it comes to community on open transfer server is not uniform. Some is how you describe it. Some are definitely not.

6 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

This is completely made for big tribes that can defend 24/7.

You say that because you lack a certain understanding of the deeper game mechanics. Open transfers are actually the scourge of big tribes and the garenteed survival for lone players/small tribes IF you understand how to use this mechanic to an insurgents advantage.

6 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

I don't know if you ever ran into people playing in the east side of the world (can't say the c word), but every new addition to the game makes them surge the servers that got the change. This happened after P+ went to official mod status, after a month there was only one server controlled by English speaking tribe. 

The success that other cultures have had in this game is profound. But it isn't because they have some sort of magical ability. Nor is it that they out number other cultures playing this game. Its a very simple reason. They have adopted a play style... a meta ... that is more efficient for the game mechanics. Eastern tribes have adopted a meta of large tribes with many members. Western tribes went for alphas that had only a few members with lots of good tames. We (western players) shouldn't blame others who play more efficiently. We should grow up, and change our play style and alphas should start recruiting vs being elitist clubs of the few. And you know what? I am not the only person who knows this. We are seeing the big pvp tribes doing just that. Look at No No No. They are a well known huge tribe that wipe Chinese servers and they are actually a multinational tribe of mainly NA and EU players.

6 hours ago, TheSpirit said:

You forget that this is P+. Controlling servers is much easier job. Harder to tame gigas, no blowing up of bases. Knowing what kind of people mostly play P+, I would say 2 experienced people per server could easily control it after initial wipe.
The thing with officials is that there are so many of them that you will eventually find one with alpha that actually takes care of the server population. But what ratio is that 1/20 1/30? Take that ratio to P+ and you will have 1 server. 

So less giga's in circulation, reduced base wiping ability, and hard to destroy safes make locking down a server easier??? All off those things are disadvantages for the attackers! And You forget P+ by in large is considered to have the most balanced pvp wise mod of the game.

 

 

[TheSpirit]

20 hours ago, johnm81 said:

And by the way, if you believe the only way to know if an alpha is going to wipe you is after the fact you must be new. 

Sure I said that... nowhere...

20 hours ago, johnm81 said:

So let me distill it for you. Transfers serve the smaller tribes greatly. Because they add nothing new in the terms of being attacked as we are already under attack. 

No you are not. Who said you are under attack? Who plays in the servers that are infected by this plague of a players? Only masochists. My arguments never were about how to deal with "problematic" alphas, it was how to keep healthy servers healthy. How to keep players actually playing. Let those morons rot in "their" servers. Why the hell would you unleash them on all the servers is beyond me...

20 hours ago, johnm81 said:

While at the same time grant us a powerful method of dodging loss, mitigating loss, and launching insurgent warfare upon alphas by keeping supply line assets hidden.

Same goes for big tribes. It has to be one moronic tribe to have everything they have in one server. So little tribes do damage by HUGE efforts, then what? Big tribe leaves server? No, they get their tames from "hidden assets" server and wipe everything without any effort.

20 hours ago, johnm81 said:

I was once on a server. And the alpha was pretty nice. Built many 'public works'. But also survived many invasions and did a lot of invading itself. The way it achieved this is it had a strong relationship and fostered many of the other tribes into what it referred to as beta tribes. These beta tribes specialized in server defense esp when the alpha was attacking a perceived threat. Now the ethics of the alphas aggressive nature aside, there was a really strong community between the alpha and its beta tribes. It was the need for self preservation that fueled this 'community'.

I am not saying your experience and how it differed from mine is wrong. What I am saying is your assumption that all things are as you have experience when it comes to community on open transfer server is not uniform. Some is how you describe it. Some are definitely not.

You say that because you lack a certain understanding of the deeper game mechanics. Open transfers are actually the scourge of big tribes and the garenteed survival for lone players/small tribes IF you understand how to use this mechanic to an insurgents advantage.

This is all good and well as long as you have experienced players who "understand deeper game mechanics". If ARK stays this elitist game, where you are either good in PvP or you can't play/only can play until someone wants you dead, this game is dead. My arguments are for better game, for game that can sell and not be refunded. In these forums you can easily lose the feeling of what average player is. Average player won't play this game if he spends a month with friends building their fort after a lot of wipes just to be wiped by someone whom wandered into the server, someone from whom they cannot defend, cannot even see attack coming. If you think this is fair, than we can leave it at that, I don't see it that way. As I said, I agree that transfers throw a challenge to alphas, but for every alpha 20 small tribes get wiped, because it never stops just with alpha.

20 hours ago, johnm81 said:

 

So less giga's in circulation, reduced base wiping ability, and hard to destroy safes make locking down a server easier??? All off those things are disadvantages for the attackers! And You forget P+ by in large is considered to have the most balanced pvp wise mod of the game.

Yes it does. Because you don't need to wipe base to the floor. Safes can be blocked. And yes it's disadvantage for attackers. THAT is my point. If server is taken over it's almost impossible to take it back unless the tribe is not active anymore. If tribe breeds pteras for few generations, anyone flying around the map can be taken out by one barrel roll, any plants (only offline defense) mean nothing to these birds, all bred gigas are in one tribe's possession, bred quetzes so on and on. It's hard enough to raid well established tribes now, what will happen when they can make safe havens in few other servers... 

Sure, dream of a lot of tribes coming together to attack across multiple servers is very nice and all, but that almost never happens. And even if it does it's not a sure thing it will work, because people with experience are generally in the big tribes and people who don't have experience are in the little ones. 

"Easy to play, hard to master" that is the golden rule in gaming. ARK has only the later part, and transfers cater only to the later part. 

Edit: also about the balance... P+ is considered the best balanced PvP because all ARK pvp is complete and utter garbage, not because P+ is good. You can build whatever defenses you want in P+, good quetz and few bred pteras can break any base if no one is online to defend (sometimes even when there is someone to defend), this is especially true because of the nerfs maxing everything at 300% dmg, when it was already hard to kill bred gigas/quetzes with 600%+ guns and bows. Not to mention that the best door is stone tier 6250hp which can be taken out with 63 hits from battleaxe making smaller tribes so much easier to raid. PvP in P+ is called balanced because it's easy to raid anyone offline, that is it. Defense offline is non-existant, defense online depends on your bp, which are even harder to get now after fishing nerfs and caves still dropping non P+ stuff... So yeah... It's fun.

[fxg]

for your information:

 

[johnm81]

On 3/26/2017 at 2:39 PM, TheSpirit said:

No you are not. Who said you are under attack? Who plays in the servers that are infected by this plague of a players? Only masochists. My arguments never were about how to deal with "problematic" alphas, it was how to keep healthy servers healthy. How to keep players actually playing. Let those morons rot in "their" servers. Why the hell would you unleash them on all the servers is beyond me...

On the contrary, more times than not yes I am. I have played on official servers, official prim+ servers, and several unofficial servers. And most of the time attacks (some failed some succeeded) on my tribe come from native tribes. Only once was my small tribe wiped due to an invasion and it was for no other reason that we were in the way of them establishing a beach head for attacking our alpha.

The morons, are already here. Now the question becomes do small tribes benefit more from spreading assets over several servers than suffering from more aggressive invaders. I say yes. You say no. Here is the impasse. 

 

[johnm81]

13 hours ago, fxg said:

for your information:

 

Yes I am aware of this. So it seems its a thing they are looking into to implement. Time will tell.

[fxg]

5 hours ago, johnm81 said:

On the contrary, more times than not yes I am. I have played on official servers, official prim+ servers, and several unofficial servers. And most of the time attacks (some failed some succeeded) on my tribe come from native tribes. Only once was my small tribe wiped due to an invasion and it was for no other reason that we were in the way of them establishing a beach head for attacking our alpha.

The morons, are already here. Now the question becomes do small tribes benefit more from spreading assets over several servers than suffering from more aggressive invaders. I say yes. You say no. Here is the impasse. 

 

In primitive plus server i play the alpha set a rule of no quetz and no giga. It is actually nice cause they control the server and keep it clean and relatively safe. If a big alpha tribe from other server decide to go there and wipe everyone it would not be that hard even more if its an offline raid. Primitive plus should not have transfers enable. Like @TheSpirit said it is not that hard to start a character in other server if you are not happy with your server. Or to go troll other server cause you have a reputation to maintain in your own server heheh

This is suppose to be a fun game, pvp is fun if it is people versus people, not assholes destroying buildings and killing dinos just because. Not having transfer means you cant take back the loot so less assholes flying around 

Primitive plus already have low number of players due to all the bugs and loading time, if you add server transfer no one will play... If you really want/need transfers let it be with offline raid protection at least! I don't want Chinese to wipe me at 4am when i'm sleeping. 

[TheSpirit]

6 hours ago, fxg said:

In primitive plus server i play the alpha set a rule of no quetz and no giga. It is actually nice cause they control the server and keep it clean and relatively safe. If a big alpha tribe from other server decide to go there and wipe everyone it would not be that hard even more if its an offline raid. Primitive plus should not have transfers enable. Like @TheSpirit said it is not that hard to start a character in other server if you are not happy with your server. Or to go troll other server cause you have a reputation to maintain in your own server heheh

This is suppose to be a fun game, pvp is fun if it is people versus people, not assholes destroying buildings and killing dinos just because. Not having transfer means you cant take back the loot so less assholes flying around 

Primitive plus already have low number of players due to all the bugs and loading time, if you add server transfer no one will play... If you really want/need transfers let it be with offline raid protection at least! I don't want Chinese to wipe me at 4am when i'm sleeping. 

@johnm81 On the server that I was kinda in charge of Alpha alliance (there were few players because of earlier wiping of servers), few of us protected new players, let them build punished griefers, but we let everyone tame anything (except for our Eastern friends). The population tripled in few months, than some big tribes allied and of course destroyed our alliance, because we weren't online so much, then they started wiping everyone... after they quit because of lag, new big tribe rose, as fascist as the later one and everyone from different country was wiped. Now server is back to third of the players it had (5-10). 
And sure someone would argue that this is not PvP, because there isn't fighting 24/7 against every other tribe. But there was enough PvP: griefers, people that don't want to follow simple rules of not building in public places and, of course, arguments and accidents that would cause war. But people played. That was my mission as someone who could enforce rules - to keep people playing. For better ARK and, even more important for me, for better P+. So, because for me transfers seem to be more harm than good in P+, I don't want them, don't want player base shrinking even more.

As for the Twitter messages, almost the same thing was said about cannons in P+, Ced didn't even know they are not in the mod. I think only way there are transfers in P+ is if they make SE P+ servers (which I would love). Maybe they make transfers only between clusters (only 3 maps, not all servers).

[johnm81]

With the advent of Ragnarok servers for P+ coming out its time once again to have this discussion and allow us to migrate from our current servers to these new ones. Server transfers from p+ map to p+ map need to be enabled.

[OnePotatoChip]

2 hours ago, johnm81 said:

With the advent of Ragnarok servers for P+ coming out its time once again to have this discussion and allow us to migrate from our current servers to these new ones. Server transfers from p+ map to p+ map need to be enabled.

I'm not even sure if Prim+ is compatible with Ragnarok at the moment. When it was a mod, there were some crashing issues that were related to Prim+ not playing nice with Scorched Earth assets in Ragnarok. No clue if it's been fixed, but hopefully. @lilpanda @complexminded @Jat Any of you know if it's been resolved? 

[johnm81]

33 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

I'm not even sure if Prim+ is compatible with Ragnarok at the moment. When it was a mod, there were some crashing issues that were related to Prim+ not playing nice with Scorched Earth assets in Ragnarok. No clue if it's been fixed, but hopefully. @lilpanda @complexminded @Jat Any of you know if it's been resolved? 

If I saw correctly there were prim+ servers that were official that were running the ragnarok map.

[OnePotatoChip]

10 minutes ago, johnm81 said:

If I saw correctly there were prim+ servers that were official that were running the ragnarok map.

Oh, sweet. Don't listen to me, then.