The END of ARK PvP: C4 Pteras

[xFish]

Hello everyone!

So, as the title says, ARK PvP will die, if Studio Wildcard doesn't fix those C4 Pteranodons.

First of all, what are C4 Pteranodons?
C4 Pteranodons are nothing else than suicide flyers. You put a bunch of C4 on the rider and barrel roll inside an enemy base. Favoured targets are behemoth gates, generators and turret towers. After reaching the target, the rider dismounts the Pteranodon and punches, which will cause the C4 to explode.

Why are they so OP?
You can't do anything against them. They are coming out of nowhere, if they are in sight it's already too late. They are barrel rolling - during that they have insane speed, turrets aren't even shooting at it during that.
If a whole tribe attacks hours and hours with those C4 Pteras, 2 C4 Pteras each 5 minutes, you don't have any chance to defend. They are blowing up turret towers left and right, breaking inside your base and ripping off your war quetzals. There's no way to defend against them.

What should Studio Wildcard do against that?
They already mentioned that OP strategy, they also tryed to fix it once ("v252.9: * Attached C4 is now always targeted by Turrets where possible" and "v252.83: * Made all Flyers except for Quetz and Wyvern become 'grounded' if you put a C4 on them. "). In theory those Pteras are fixed with that update, but in practise not. If there's a war between two tribes, the player count on the server will be higher than normal which causes high ping. If the ping is high, turrets shoot slower. Added to that, the Ptera is too fast in a barrel roll for turrets to shoot it.
Because of that, I would suggest wildcard to make it impossible for players who have C4 attatched to them to mount any dino. That's an easy solution which should be easy and fast to implement to the game.

Thank you for reading

Greetings, xFish

[Dustrider]

Are you saying that pteras aren't grounded when c4 is placed on them?

[xFish]

3 minutes ago, Dustrider said:

Are you saying that pteras aren't grounded when c4 is placed on them?

Yes they are, but you need to read carefully

34 minutes ago, xFish said:

You put a bunch of C4 on the rider

 

[Dustrider]

Just now, xFish said:

Yes they are, but you need to read carefully

 

Ah I see, missed that detail

[c4m3roni]

+1

[TimeSpiral]

I'm not disagreeing that this strategy seems broken, but for the sake of argument: isn't the amount of resources needed to have enough c4 to cause meaningful damage pretty high? Meaning; if you're spent that many resources, you expect to do some damage, right? Are you saying you should be able to counter this while taking zero damage? Wouldn't plants slow the Ptera's down enough to pick them off with enough turrets?

Also; isn't it also good in a way that someone has found a way to deal with turrets other than the extremely-boring turret drain strategies?

Excepting C4 bombs, turrets have no counter other than standing there, getting shot, then turning around which is lame and boring gameplay. And to tame a dino, strap it in C4 and then fly it or drop it onto a base to take out what--one or two turrets?

I'll throw a random idea out there: I'd like to see the spiders specialize in shooting webs at flyers. They can "bola" some flyers and "slow down" the big fliers.  

[xFish]

9 minutes ago, TimeSpiral said:

I'm not disagreeing that this strategy seems broken, but for the sake of argument: isn't the amount of resources needed to have enough c4 to cause meaningful damage pretty high? Meaning; if you're spent that many resources, you expect to do some damage, right? Are you saying you should be able to counter this while taking zero damage? Wouldn't plants slow the Ptera's down enough to pick them off with enough turrets?

Also; isn't it also good in a way that someone has found a way to deal with turrets other than the extremely-boring turret drain strategies?

Excepting C4 bombs, turrets have no counter other than standing there, getting shot, then turning around which is lame and boring gameplay. And to tame a dino, strap it in C4 and then fly it or drop it onto a base to take out what--one or two turrets?

I'll throw a random idea out there: I'd like to see the spiders specialize in shooting webs at flyers. They can "bola" some flyers and "slow down" the big fliers.  

The thing is, that plants don't hit the ptera. They are shooting way slower than turrets.

I also thought about C4 getting useless then, but WC could balance that easy compared with rockets (just higher the DMG).

Added to that, there are multiple legit ways to handle auto turrets with not just tanking and draining them empty.

Greetings, xFish

[TimeSpiral]

2 minutes ago, xFish said:

The thing is, that plants don't hit the ptera. They are shooting way slower than turrets.

I also thought about C4 getting useless then, but WC could balance that easy compared with rockets (just higher the DMG).

Added to that, there are multiple legit ways to handle auto turrets with not just tanking and draining them empty.

Greetings, xFish

So if you're not draining the turrets, or bombing them with C4, care to explain the other counters to mass auto-turret?

[5010]

+1

A real fix to turret tracking speed seems like a finer solution in the end as well. Nerfing flyer speed and whether or not flyers can fly or be mounted under various circumstances are well and good too but the underlying problem here is turrets not tracking quickly enough especially during high ping or battle situations. If the turrets tracking can b optimized I believe the state of Pvp would b greatly improved.

[xFish]

2 minutes ago, TimeSpiral said:

So if you're not draining the turrets, or bombing them with C4, care to explain the other counters to mass auto-turret?

You can drop a turtle on the turrets, the rider of it has a rocket launcher equipped and shoots them.

You can use a bunch of brontos.

You can try to barrel roll underneath their base if they've built on pillars

And some other things

[TimeSpiral]

3 minutes ago, xFish said:

You can drop a turtle on the turrets, the rider of it has a rocket launcher equipped and shoots them.

You can use a bunch of brontos.

You can try to barrel roll underneath their base if they've built on pillars

And some other things

Ahhh, ok. 

The Turtle thing should work if the turrets are set up properly, but might work against a bad design or a weak spot. 

Brontos, they're just draining the bullets, or is this similar to the "get all the turrets shooting then hope mass rocket makes it through"? Because if they're set up turrets properly, again, this doesn't work. 

The pillars, yeah. That would be rough if someone chose to not protect their foundation. 

Let me be a little more clear in my question: assuming your opponent isn't making mistakes (e.g., not setting up turrets properly, exposed support, etc ...), what real solutions have you seen other than draining bullets and C4 bombs?

[xFish]

7 minutes ago, TimeSpiral said:

Ahhh, ok. 

The Turtle thing should work if the turrets are set up properly, but might work against a bad design or a weak spot. 

Brontos, they're just draining the bullets, or is this similar to the "get all the turrets shooting then hope mass rocket makes it through"? Because if they're set up turrets properly, again, this doesn't work. 

The pillars, yeah. That would be rough if someone chose to not protect their foundation. 

Let me be a little more clear in my question: assuming your opponent isn't making mistakes (e.g., not setting up turrets properly, exposed support, etc ...), what real solutions have you seen other than draining bullets and C4 bombs?

You're right there. But no base is setted up without mistakes. Every base has it's weakness.

That C4 Pteras are just the "masterkey" for raiding every base, I mean if you could actually do something against them it would be ok but you can't.

[Suave]

22 minutes ago, xFish said:

You're right there. But no base is setted up without mistakes. Every base has it's weakness.

That C4 Pteras are just the "masterkey" for raiding every base, I mean if you could actually do something against them it would be ok but you can't.

They could put in a triggered smoke grenade... place these traps around turret pillars and when you begin to get attacked you could set them off and the enemy wouldn't be able to locate your turrets to target them. That would be fun, but I think that the defensive side is always going to be a challenge, because on one hand you have smaller tribes trying to rise up and gain control, so they are asking for better attack methods and then on the other hand are the huge alphas that don't want to lose their precious toys. Our tribe has been alpha a couple of times and most recently got cross server wiped... we love getting the opportunity to start fresh and experience the game with all of the new dinos. In all the ark experience should be cyclical, no tribe should ever rule for eternity and every small tribe should be able to dream, within reason to destroy that oppressive alpha.

 

Baisically what I am saying is that if they fix the ptera bombs I hope that they include more attack/defense mechanics to add further depth to raiding, because right now its just c4 and rockets... maybe a quetz.

[TimeSpiral]

3 hours ago, xFish said:

You're right there. But no base is setted up without mistakes. Every base has it's weakness.

That C4 Pteras are just the "masterkey" for raiding every base, I mean if you could actually do something against them it would be ok but you can't.

Not every base. We recently went on a massive--massive--raid and the target base was utterly blanketed with plants and turrets. C4 bombs could have worked eventually, but this base was so laggy you would DC 100% of the time if you tried any type of organized push, or even a single-man rush. Crazy ... took a long, long time to push through. Now, if someone is attacking a fairly small building, maybe 20 ish turrets and plants, then yeah, the C4 bomb is probably really strong.

2 hours ago, Suave said:

They could put in a triggered smoke grenade... place these traps around turret pillars and when you begin to get attacked you could set them off and the enemy wouldn't be able to locate your turrets to target them. That would be fun, but I think that the defensive side is always going to be a challenge, because on one hand you have smaller tribes trying to rise up and gain control, so they are asking for better attack methods and then on the other hand are the huge alphas that don't want to lose their precious toys. Our tribe has been alpha a couple of times and most recently got cross server wiped... we love getting the opportunity to start fresh and experience the game with all of the new dinos. In all the ark experience should be cyclical, no tribe should ever rule for eternity and every small tribe should be able to dream, within reason to destroy that oppressive alpha.

 

Baisically what I am saying is that if they fix the ptera bombs I hope that they include more attack/defense mechanics to add further depth to raiding, because right now its just c4 and rockets... maybe a quetz.

Turrets are way too good, imo, but I understand why they are, because of the offline aspect of this game. They are machine guns that auto-shoot and never miss, and because of the current meta, essentially do maximum damage for their value (the meta being draining). 

People coming up with ideas to overcome things like this is good, but I do believe counters should exist. And they probably do, we just haven't figured them out yet, and if they truly don't exist then it will quickly become the only tactic used and the developers will have to respond. 

[LilNastyGurl]

C4 Bomb strat doesn't work as well as it would seem. With heightened guns (one above the other) the C-attack doesn't protect the rider from "Players Only" targeting and the C4 will detonate mid-spin before you get close enough.

Just tested it now. Unless you are attacking a base where all the turrets are on a horizontal plane without guns cross-covering each other, you basically are throwing away Pteras and C4.

[definitelynottyler]

1 hour ago, LilNastyGurl said:

C4 Bomb strat doesn't work as well as it would seem. With heightened guns (one above the other) the C-attack doesn't protect the rider from "Players Only" targeting and the C4 will detonate mid-spin before you get close enough.

Just tested it now. Unless you are attacking a base where all the turrets are on a horizontal plane without guns cross-covering each other, you basically are throwing away Pteras and C4.

The problem really exists at higher MS and 255 ping where turrets take forever to ramp up/target.  There's a chance for the C4 to be shot beforehand but in a lot of cases due to server latency it's easy to avoid turret tracking almost entirely.

This isn't a problem that is the "end of ark" since c4 bombing has existed since difficulty 1.0 and turret tracking has been a problem since then as well but rather the problem lies within server lag being so detrimental and exploitable in the current game while also using this allowed pvp mechanic.  

[HannahBelLecterr]

6 hours ago, TimeSpiral said:

I'm not disagreeing that this strategy seems broken, but for the sake of argument: isn't the amount of resources needed to have enough c4 to cause meaningful damage pretty high? Meaning; if you're spent that many resources, you expect to do some damage, right? Are you saying you should be able to counter this while taking zero damage? Wouldn't plants slow the Ptera's down enough to pick them off with enough turrets?

Also; isn't it also good in a way that someone has found a way to deal with turrets other than the extremely-boring turret drain strategies?

Excepting C4 bombs, turrets have no counter other than standing there, getting shot, then turning around which is lame and boring gameplay. And to tame a dino, strap it in C4 and then fly it or drop it onto a base to take out what--one or two turrets?

I'll throw a random idea out there: I'd like to see the spiders specialize in shooting webs at flyers. They can "bola" some flyers and "slow down" the big fliers.  

I agree with the spider/bola!

[Mendoza]

I really like the spider bola idea too!

[definitelynottyler]

8 hours ago, TimeSpiral said:

 

I'll throw a random idea out there: I'd like to see the spiders specialize in shooting webs at flyers. They can "bola" some flyers and "slow down" the big fliers.  

They would suffer from the exact same problem that turrets currently suffer from, tracking speed while the server ping is 255.

[oDisarMo]

You can actually stick these on quetzals head and stick them through walls and blow up a lot of things including war rafts as well. Cheap tactic but people will do whatever they can to raid a base. Draining turrets over and over for an hour or two gets boring after awhile 

[definitelynottyler]

31 minutes ago, oDisarMo said:

You can actually stick these on quetzals head and stick them through walls and blow up a lot of things including war rafts as well. Cheap tactic but people will do whatever they can to raid a base. Draining turrets over and over for an hour or two gets boring after awhile 

Don't know why so many people try to drain turrets when you can just distract turrets with tamed/wild dinos held by a quetzal and shoot the turrets with a rocket turret.  

[Bladesama]

so you are whinging about tactics you and your tribe have employed many times before, but now that  it is used against you ,it is suddenly bad? wasnt bad when you or your tribe and allies used it before against other tribes??

are you begging for another 24 hour rollback because you didnt farm enough mats to replace things that get blown up and the fact yet again you are losing?

[xFish]

44 minutes ago, Bladesama said:

you didnt farm enough mats to replace things that get blown up?

We have enough mats to replace blown up things. There are just two problems:

1) You (Spartans) are attacking always at that time, where most of our players aren't online (christmas, new years eve).

2) Our base is way above structure cap.

46 minutes ago, Bladesama said:

but now that  it is used against you ,it is suddenly bad

Since the structure limit came out, there's nothing to do for us to defend against that. That's why I am posting this here, that's not PvP anymore.

[sal]

The best defense is still building your base so huge, so many turrets/xplants that the server will lag out the moment any attacker flys in.

After a certain size the server will just collapse under the load.

Last big war i was in (like 20vs20, huge base raid) server crashed the moment we attacked.

and several more times.

lag was unbearable

it took days to break in ...

 

so i guess to be fairly safe go big, go bigger and out-lag the attacker =)

[xFish]

18 hours ago, LilNastyGurl said:

C4 Bomb strat doesn't work as well as it would seem. With heightened guns (one above the other) the C-attack doesn't protect the rider from "Players Only" targeting and the C4 will detonate mid-spin before you get close enough.

Just tested it now. Unless you are attacking a base where all the turrets are on a horizontal plane without guns cross-covering each other, you basically are throwing away Pteras and C4.

It does....don't test it out in single player where the Ping is 1, test it on official servers, especially laggy servers...