Cannons on Prim+

[DeweyDecimal]

1 hour ago, vargata said:

no please just dont. this is prim for a reason. ballista? catapult? ok. even trebuchet if you really want. but cannon? no way

We have explosive barrels already.

Gunpowder, Iron... Cannons are pretty primitive tech.

Plus, as I posted ages ago, how would you suggest we KO a titan?

[vargata]

28 minutes ago, DeweyDecimal said:

We have explosive barrels already.

Gunpowder, Iron... Cannons are pretty primitive tech.

hardly any stoneage or even metal age guys were running around with cannons. they arent at all primitive. explosive barrels were a thing in a very ancient era...

30 minutes ago, DeweyDecimal said:

Plus, as I posted ages ago, how would you suggest we KO a titan?

catapults. anyway, rather just dont...

[DeweyDecimal]

9 hours ago, vargata said:

hardly any stoneage or even metal age guys were running around with cannons. they arent at all primitive. explosive barrels were a thing in a very ancient era...

catapults. anyway, rather just dont...

Catapults deal next to no torpor.

It would take several, constantly firing, never missing, for hours.

So you're okay with flintlock pistols and muskets, which are basically miniaturized cannons, but not a cannon itself?

Cannons date back to the 12th Century.

I think something invented 900 years ago counts as primitive.

I could make a cannon in my backyard right now.

 

[vargata]

1 hour ago, DeweyDecimal said:

Catapults deal next to no torpor.

It would take several, constantly firing, never missing, for hours.

So you're okay with flintlock pistols and muskets, which are basically miniaturized cannons, but not a cannon itself?

Cannons date back to the 12th Century.

I think something invented 900 years ago counts as primitive.

I could make a cannon in my backyard right now.

 

nope, im not fine with those either, to be honest even the crossbow is too much for my taste (they do exist a long time ago except that not in its current form, i would accept them if they were powerful but slow weapons against heavy attackers and the bow would stay for hunting) but what now should i start a whinetopic too about removing them?

[DeweyDecimal]

27 minutes ago, vargata said:

nope, im not fine with those either, to be honest even the crossbow is too much for my taste (they do exist a long time ago except that not in its current form, i would accept them if they were powerful but slow weapons against heavy attackers and the bow would stay for hunting) but what now should i start a whinetopic too about removing them?

Your immersion experience is overruled by balance and popular demand.

Sorry

[vargata]

17 minutes ago, DeweyDecimal said:

Your immersion experience is overruled by balance and popular demand.

Sorry

balance? what balance? the one you imagined? primitive+ is about primitive, its in its description that its a more realistic approach and consist item that could be created by primitive tools. now guns muskets and cannons are not primitive in this sense, no guy could handforge a musket with primitive tools. it needs quite an engineering... i wish the devs would go by their original image instead of listening to whiner. those wanna play with modern toys can always go and play normal ark

[DeweyDecimal]

Just now, vargata said:

balance? what balance? the one you imagined? primitive+ is about primitive, its in its description that its a more realistic approach and consist item that could be created by primitive tools. now guns muskets and cannons are not primitive in this sense, no guy could handforge a musket with primitive tools. it needs quite an engineering... i wish the devs would go by their original image instead of listening to whiner. those wanna play with modern toys can always go and play normal ark

Ced's description of primitive is 'things that could reasonably be built by a modern person stranded in such a location' (paraphrased)

We accept that metalworking is something people would figure out eventually (or would you advocate stone tools only?) I could make a cannon out of PVC in my back yard, it's not that much of a stretch to think a survivor could fashion a metal tube.

Furthermore, addressing balance, the cannon is an answer to the oft-complained OP safeboxes, and brick-tier raiding. And AGAIN, an actual, viable way to tame a titan.

Of course, according to your earlier reply, prim + players shouldn't be able to tame that because something something primitive something.

 

[vargata]

1 minute ago, DeweyDecimal said:

because something something primitive something.

whoah, what a style of arguing... and ofcourse you could make a cannon, dont worry about it exploding into your face, because even with hundreds of years of experience it was happening. i wonder how much you know about making cannons, you would probably die for your first experiencing.

[DeweyDecimal]

4 minutes ago, vargata said:

whoah, what a style of arguing... and ofcourse you could make a cannon, dont worry about it exploding into your face, because even with hundreds of years of experience it was happening. i wonder how much you know about making cannons, you would probably die for your first experiencing.

Sure, ignore all the valid points I made, great argument style.

Compromise: add a 'misfire' function.

I've refrained from insulting you, directly or indirectly, I'd appreciate if you'd do the same.

[vargata]

3 minutes ago, DeweyDecimal said:

I've refrained from insulting you, directly or indirectly, I'd appreciate if you'd do the same.

oh, now you start accusing me with something i didnt do so the admins might jump on me... valid tactics, i guess you play the same style ingame.

you didnt bring up valid arguments. catapults should be able to destroy any building and knock out dinos. they dont? fix them. on the other hand, i think in prim ppl shouldnt be able to tame most dinos. thats what is currently ruining this game. allow me to insert here what wc said about the current situation: ppl instead of surviving started to sit back and dominate. and the sole reason for this is the op tools they get. tame a single rex and if you use it well NOTHING in the "wild" can stop you. only other players with more rexes. this game would be about survival and building op weapons and tame op dinos defeat this purpose entirely. ark in its current form is NOT a survival game just a tower defense crap where the planned to be most important enemy, the wilderness, is nothing more than mere nuisance...

[DeweyDecimal]

2 minutes ago, vargata said:

oh, now you start accusing me with something i didnt do so the admins might jump on me... valid tactics, i guess you play the same style ingame.

you didnt bring up valid arguments. catapults should be able to destroy any building and knock out dinos. they dont? fix them. on the other hand, i think in prim ppl shouldnt be able to tame most dinos. thats what is currently ruining this game. allow me to insert here what wc said about the current situation: ppl instead of surviving started to sit back and dominate. and the sole reason for this is the op tools they get. tame a single rex and if you use it well NOTHING in the "wild" can stop you. only other players with more rexes. this game would be about survival and building op weapons and tame op dinos defeat this purpose entirely. ark in its current form is NOT a survival game just a tower defense crap where the planned to be most important enemy, the wilderness, is nothing more than mere nuisance...

"i wonder how much you know about making cannons, you would probably die for your first experiencing." 

indirectly asserting that I lack the intelligence to do it.

any source for what "WC said"?

Sounds to me like you don't like the direction the game is going, might I suggest Far Cry Primal to meet your prehistoric gaming needs

[vargata]

3 minutes ago, DeweyDecimal said:

"i wonder how much you know about making cannons, you would probably die for your first experiencing." 

indirectly asserting that I lack the intelligence to do it.

any source for what "WC said"?

Sounds to me like you don't like the direction the game is going, might I suggest Far Cry Primal to meet your prehistoric gaming needs

wow, thats not a question of intelligence but the question of metallurgy knowledge which is a quite serious science. not expecting the average ppl to know it is not an insult just realistic thinking

far cry is a scripted crap and not a sandbox game

we are getting offtopic

[DeweyDecimal]

Just now, vargata said:

wow, thats not a question of intelligence but the question of metallurgy knowledge which is a quite serious science. not expecting the average ppl to know it is not an insult just realistic thinking

far cry is a scripted crap and not a sandbox game

we are getting offtopic

The metallurgy knowledge required was developed in the 12th Century.

More than 900 years ago. 

You think a primitive player shouldn't even be able to tame a rex? In a game where taming is one of the major mechanics?

There's no logic in your argument, you're leaning on your desire for realistic immersion.

One last time: it's not that much of a stretch to think survivors that can make metal tools, steel safes and water reservoirs, and primitive firearms, would figure out how to make an iron tube.

There are more voices in support of cannons than opposing, it's happening regardless of your protest, so either suck it up and accept it, or go play something else.

[vargata]

oO, i only saw like 3 ppl crying for cannons, if it happens or not wont be decided by you. suck it up or go play something else. like normal ark, there are cannons, soon even laserguns. there is logic in my arguments, more than in yours, if you cant find it its your bad.

8 minutes ago, DeweyDecimal said:

it's not that much of a stretch to think survivors that can make metal tools, steel safes and water reservoirs

true, they could probably do it, none of these needs complex calculations and precision engineering

8 minutes ago, DeweyDecimal said:

The metallurgy knowledge required was developed in the 12th Century.

and so it means you can do it? cars were developed more thans a hundred years ago. could you make a car from rocks? no you couldnt, just like you couldnt make guns or cannons.

10 minutes ago, DeweyDecimal said:

would figure out how to make an iron tube

guns and cannons are not just a simple iron tube, its not even about the mechanism, all that can be done... the science behind is to make that tube being strong but soft in the same time so it can withdraw the forces and not fracturing like glass. to make a metal that can do this and then make a tube out of it with the right sizes... its a little delusional to think just because the knowledge of gunmaking is ancient then anybody could figure it out and make one with a stone pick. its not accidental that 6000 years of human history has passed away without them

[Sorrelon]

2 hours ago, DeweyDecimal said:

Ced's description of primitive is 'things that could reasonably be built by a modern person stranded in such a location' (paraphrased)

We accept that metalworking is something people would figure out eventually (or would you advocate stone tools only?) I could make a cannon out of PVC in my back yard, it's not that much of a stretch to think a survivor could fashion a metal tube.

Well, by the same logic, wouldn't survivors eventually figure out how to make more advanced versions of flintlock pistols and muskets (which currently exist in primitive+), leading to the invention of assault rifles and other modern guns? You know, just how it already works in normal mode? What's the point of having primitive+ then?

 

I have another approach for the normal and primitive+ modes. Most, if not all, players know about the survivor notes and how they are written by survivors with widely varying backgrounds. Some of them are from 21st century, some are from 19th century, one is a Roman legionnaire, another is a priestess from ancient Egypt etc. In some of those survivor notes, it is also noted that how survivors from earlier ages are surprised to find out what rifles are and how they work, about which they have no knowledge about. So, as far as we know, Ark is a controlled experiment. The way I see it, test subjects in "normal mode" Arks are thrown in there regardless of their timeline, while "primitive+" Arks only have test subjects which are from early-firearms ages and earlier, which is why they can figure out how to build flintlock pistols, muskets and cannons, but doesn't have the faintest idea about advanced tech like scuba gear, laser pointers or scoped rifles etc.

 

2 hours ago, DeweyDecimal said:

Furthermore, addressing balance, the cannon is an answer to the oft-complained OP safeboxes, and brick-tier raiding. And AGAIN, an actual, viable way to tame a titan.

Of course, according to your earlier reply, prim + players shouldn't be able to tame that because something something primitive something.

 

Besides the lore-wise points I was talking about, cannons are more or less needed for balance. Titans (and rock elementals, in case they decide to make primitive+ compatible with SE) are near impossible to tame without cannons. I'm also all for having something that can devastate safeboxes, although I have a different stance when it comes to buildings. Brick-tier is currently OP and should be nerfed. If anything, I'd have it not as the metal-tier of primitive+, but as a counterpart of stone-tier. While stone-tier buildings should receive more damage from dinos and less damage from siege weapons, brick-tier should be more durable against dino attacks but also more susceptible to siege weapons.

[DeweyDecimal]

49 minutes ago, vargata said:

oO, i only saw like 3 ppl crying for cannons, if it happens or not wont be decided by you. suck it up or go play something else. like normal ark, there are cannons, soon even laserguns. there is logic in my arguments, more than in yours, if you cant find it its your bad.

true, they could probably do it, none of these needs complex calculations and precision engineering

and so it means you can do it? cars were developed more thans a hundred years ago. could you make a car from rocks? no you couldnt, just like you couldnt make guns or cannons.

guns and cannons are not just a simple iron tube, its not even about the mechanism, all that can be done... the science behind is to make that tube being strong but soft in the same time so it can withdraw the forces and not fracturing like glass. to make a metal that can do this and then make a tube out of it with the right sizes... its a little delusional to think just because the knowledge of gunmaking is ancient then anybody could figure it out and make one with a stone pick. its not accidental that 6000 years of human history has passed away without them

Given enough time, and a 'tribe' of other survivors, it wouldn't be unthinkable.

Regardless, gameplay balance trumps realism.

We are, after all, playing a game full of dinosaurs, there's a certain suspension of disbelief.

[vargata]

balance does not need cannons... there were plenty of ancient war machines that should do it

[Ark247uk]

Another reason I love PVE less thoughts on stuff to destroy bases... I don't wanna tame a Dino for limited time etc but I like prim+ PVE cos there's no need for guns etc.. I can play and survive using real primitive stuff I don't need to waste engrams on stuff I don't need to use.

 

I love cauldrons I love rice I love everything prim+ and I like to play PVE so it stays primitive we don't take unnecessary risks and upsetting titansaurs etc so we don't even have  species x lol.

[BlackSkurge]

I suppose in this sense we disregard di'vinci blueprinting the first tank or flying machine during the renaissance made almost entirely of wood metal can be formed around stone which can be chiseled with stone into shapes most primitive tech consisting of metal dates back thousands of years by non-scholars who were driven by need for power stating with copper and by renaissance Era was steel cannons have been in human capacity for destruction black powder was shared with the rest of the world magic powder which is a black powder mix is used centuries before Christ and is a viable "grenade"