thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Every single person who dares to stream the game is getting hunted, some for hours at a time by stream snipers abusing the "free" accounts they got when the game was free. Its co-ordinated, planned and specifically targeting players to make them lose points. In essence right now if you want to make it into any leagues you can not stream a good percentage of your games, how bad is that for a game that already is lacking in exposure ? no high level games, no decent players able to stream for half a season or risk being sniped game after game after game. yes you can kill them but if you kill them 5 times and they get you once then they have still made you lose ELO it only takes one time for it to be a "payoff" for them. Here are the problems Our steam profiles are displayed for everyone to view on a leader board, easy for the snipers to look up the "current" name and follow it into lobbies People join lobbies manually, its really easy if you combine knowing the persons steam account with the ability to see who is in what lobby before a game begins. Incredibly high ELO penalties for early deaths the later in the season you get, i.e at 1850 you lose 5-6 hours worth of "wins" for an early death, it just makes sniping to make someone lose elo that much more effective. What I suggest to help with it Automatic lobbies "oh but Stiff we did that once for an afternoon and the queue times were long" yes, yes they were however they are long as hell right now so what difference does it make ? yes people can indeed just click queue at the same time you do but there is always a risk they end up in a different lobby that way and honestly with the game the way it is right now I don't think hitting "join game" and just waiting for a bit is going to hurt people anymore than sitting in a lobby for 5-10 mins. Stop displaying all of our steam profiles on a leader board, come on guys some sort of snapshot or something would be fine but it all linking directly to the steam profile is silly if you wont put auto lobbies in let us select a different in game name that is displayed when we join a lobby Is stream sniping an offence ? can you clarify this ? can we have some sort of word as to this ? so at least we know where we stand. someone actively doing "anti teaming, sniping, cheating" its insane you offer cash prizes as big as you do but cant put one single person in place to at least monitor these games (even if it was at random). Sending the after action report to everyone in the game so its easier to report these people (if the stance is its not allowed/bannable) even if the report stopped when you died it would help and these accounts would be spotted much quicker and easier A report this death/player button, why isnt this a thing anyway ? Before you make it personal because I know some will, I have put up with months of stream sniping myself without coming here to complain and have got as smart as I can with it (loading screen when going into games, constant steam profile changes, joining lobbies then quitting then joining other modes) but its just too easy for them to snipe and there is _no_ punishment for it and now its becoming so widespread that the few "big" sotf streamers left have walked away from the game its time you did at least TRIED to do something WC. This would of course mean one of you actually responding to this topic mind Honestly though if we just had some stance on the sniping on these "alt" accounts and someone at WC's end willing to take the evidence in and start zapping these accounts it would go a long way towards fixing it because _all_ of these snipers and teamers are only doing it because they can do so anonymously take that away from them make it a bit harder to do that im 99% sure most of them will just go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuntingYou Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 I think that there are no simple fixes to the stream sniping problem, if someone is streaming it's trivial to find their lobby and even if people are banned russian ark accounts are cheap enough to replace with VPNs making IP bans impossible. However when watching your stream you have often said that you enjoy the bow practise that snipers give you, so good luck with "fun" friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacepie Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 I believe it was clarified several times before that stream sniping is not against the rules. Just wanted to point out that all the "problems" you mentioned are actually there by design. With current player base in SOTF, I don't even blame WC for not rolling out as many patches as they could. IMO, if you want to improve SOTF, just remove Survivor League..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedrosaltana Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 hmmm Stream sniping could fall under "Sportmanship" but yeah... pretty much everything can, but nothing is done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacepie Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, Pedrosaltana said: hmmm Stream sniping could fall under "Sportmanship" but yeah... pretty much everything can, but nothing is done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I agree with you, it could fall under "sportsmanship" ..... but there's no way to prove anything unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, spacepie said: I agree with you, it could fall under "sportsmanship" ..... but there's no way to prove anything unfortunately I can 100% prove I was sniped last night and the accounts that did it. They were also teaming (2-3 people). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 44 minutes ago, HuntingYou said: I think that there are no simple fixes to the stream sniping problem, if someone is streaming it's trivial to find their lobby and even if people are banned russian ark accounts are cheap enough to replace with VPNs making IP bans impossible. However when watching your stream you have often said that you enjoy the bow practise that snipers give you, so good luck with "fun" friday. There are no simple fixes but WC could at least take some actions to make it harder, these guys doing this are going for low end low hanging fruit if they start having to jump through hoops, or buy accounts to do it eventually they will give up and I do enjoy it but I'm sadistic and live for the embarrassment of killing people 2v1 when they are sniping me or killing them with a hatchet many others just want to play the game and don't want this sort of bs to deal with (hence them literally stopping streaming the game). There will always be snipers but all you can do is make it so difficult that only the dedicated will engage in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacepie Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, thestiffler said: I can 100% prove I was sniped last night and the accounts that did it. They were also teaming (2-3 people). Enlighten me please, how do you prove 100% stream sniping on Twitch.... I don't want to see any assumptions though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iiGoku Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Multiple People got reported already WITH Proof. Nothing happens anyways, sadly. Survivor League and People that feel satisfied getting Attention/Streamsnipe ruining it for the last few Streamer, that actually still play Sotf. Honestly i think nobody cares, so there will nothing happen, i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 21 minutes ago, spacepie said: I believe it was clarified several times before that stream sniping is not against the rules. Just wanted to point out that all the "problems" you mentioned are actually there by design. With current player base in SOTF, I don't even blame WC for not rolling out as many patches as they could. IMO, if you want to improve SOTF, just remove Survivor League..... I would love to see where it was clarified I rarely see anything clear when it comes to sotf Its a self perpetuating cycle at that point, oh the player base is low lets stop putting effort in, player base gets lower because there is a lack of effort being put in, at the end of the day someone from WC keeps putting up $65k a month, organising monthly playoffs paying for casters etc but its like a halfway house currently, money but no effort or seemingly will to do anything outside of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potentiallunatic Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 It's got to the stage now where the only real solution is to remove the survivor league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 1 minute ago, spacepie said: Enlighten me please, how do you prove 100% stream sniping on Twitch.... I don't want to see any assumptions though.... Well I got killed by 2 guys in one game past bronto, then the next game the same two guys came after me at evo, then the next game the same two guys came after me at the start, I killed them won the game and got the steam accounts, as I started calling them out they started changing the steam accounts names. Its on my vod from last night and its quite clear as they were using alt twich accounts to troll about it in the channel at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacepie Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, thestiffler said: Well I got killed by 2 guys in one game past bronto, then the next game the same two guys came after me at evo, then the next game the same two guys came after me at the start, I killed them won the game and got the steam accounts, as I started calling them out they started changing the steam accounts names. Its on my vod from last night and its quite clear as they were using alt twich accounts to troll about it in the channel at the same time. Yeah, but where's the proof?...... I understand that form your point of view it's sufficient, but it's not.... Any fair admin wouldn't take action based on a player's assumptions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 Just now, spacepie said: Yeah, but where's the proof?...... I understand that form your point of view it's sufficient, but it's not.... Any fair admin wouldn't take action based on a player's assumptions.... So someone else I know was in the first game I died in, where they both suicide right after killing me, he got me the after game report and it was the same 2 accounts in every single game I played that night, I also killed both of them (same thing both coming right after me with bows), they THEN came INTO the channel to boast about it. Both private steam profiles, both 1500 ELO. I mean I don't know how much more proof of it you can get, and I 100% have them teaming on camera regardless of weather you think its a snipe or not, so at the WORST I had the same 2 accounts and same 2 players in every single game I played for 3 hours that were always working together (in FFA) always in the same place (on FFA) and always just going for me before dying to get back to the lobby. I don't really get how you can call that an assumption, go look at my VOD from last night its so obvious you're going to feel a little silly taking the devils advocate stance for the sake of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer Moderator GP Posted November 3, 2016 Volunteer Moderator Share Posted November 3, 2016 Although I believe what you say, as it sounds very much like it was stream sniping if that happened 3 games in a row, plus the trolling in the channel chat, but for there to be 100% proof then you must remove ALL chances of coincidence. The 3 games in a row does not remove all chances of coincidence, and unless you can tie the alt twitch accounts to the players in the game (which you won't be able to) then you can't have 100% proof of stream sniping. This therefore makes it a difficult situation to take action against the accused. As I said, I believe you were stream sniped, as I know it happens a lot. There certainly does need to be some changes made to the whole SOTF tournament situation, and whilst those changes are being contemplated I think the best course of action is to halt the survivors league, or at least halt the $65,000 aspect of it. The downside to that is that will likely cause more players to leave. As I say it's a difficult situation. But stream snipers suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 Well I can 100% prove they were teaming and I 100% have the accounts, so that should be enough right ? Its fine though guys you are literally just re enforcing why so many people who stream are stepping away from the game, I ran leagues many of them at times to be a good admin you have use intuition as much as anything else and I have seen people removed by WC for teaming for far less evidence than I can present on these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potentiallunatic Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 There is not, and never will be 100% definitive proof of stream sniping. In-game admins would go a long way to help with other more visible offences such as teaming and players hunting and instantly forfeiting after a kill with the intention of harassing a particular individual. But with the player base as it currently stands it's highly unlikely that any further safeguards will be put into place. So as stated previously the removal of the survivor league is the only logical course of action unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer Moderator GP Posted November 3, 2016 Volunteer Moderator Share Posted November 3, 2016 I don't know if the survivors league needs to be removed completely, just the financial part of it. That's what drives the stream snipers, taking whatever corners they can to desperate get their mits on free money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacepie Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 A lot of people are missing the point to be honest. I am going to lay it out as simple as I can so we can get some sort of consensus going. Stream sniping has been a problem for streamers long before Ark appeared in the picture. There are all sorts of workarounds to avoid this. WC stated it clearly, you're exposing yourself to risks when streaming, there's nothing they can do about it. To prove teaming, you need clear video proof that shows they are getting that "unfair advantage" over other players. (which can be debated for hours). Moving forward, even if you have this proof, which is almost impossible to get, you'll be able to ban 2 "smurfs" accounts. Now, how do you prove that this is a "smurf" ? This is the 1 million dollar question, which nobody can answer.... Sometimes starting from scratch is better and much easier than fixing something that is broken, thus my opinion that removing the Survivor League is the only way. Make no mistake, this won't end stream sniping, but you'll care less because there is no grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 Interesting subversion of the thread space pie, no ones suggesting that stream sniping is a problem unique to this game the points above directly address why its become such a focal point in sotf (over other games) and there are even some suggested ideas to alleviate it. As for the teaming the amount of lines you have written you could just go watch the VOD if you don't think two guns running side by side firing arrows at me using in game voice comms is a clear sign of an advantage in FFA then I dunno what else to say. A smurf is pretty easy to prove also I mean its a real straight forward common sense sort of thing actually but whatever apparently the only thing you want to hear is this cant be fixed and we might as well all give up and bugger off. It can be made better, it can be made more difficult for them and it can be improved that's all people want is improvement it might not ever be perfect but if you remove all but the hardcore snipers you will go a long way to improving the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuntingYou Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 I agree with PieSpace, if I'm correct stiffler was being sniped on an alt account for much of the last night, so it clearly wasnt related to the survivor league and stream sniping is highly unlikely to stop a motivated player reaching the league when they can just grind the points back off stream. ALso Ending the survivor league would likely cause a lot of players to quit sotf and with an even lower player count lobbies will fill too slowly for casual players to stick around. Ending the survivor league simply answers none of the problems presented here and would likely kill the game we all love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 I'm not sure why you're trying to Ad hominem me in a subtle fashion but I already stated this problem is a general issue where I am seeing the guys I watch turn off, quit sotf, and stop streaming it yes I'm affected but I'm a very small streamer in comparison to the ones who are leaving and stopping streaming because of it, but then you did register this account just to post on this topic and keep referring to things that happened in my stream that you "believe" I've done or happened so eh go figure. The survivor league is a stifling presence in this game, its all encompassing and came way to early in the games lifespan when it was still a pretty immature to throw this vast a sum of money at, getting rid of it might be the only chance it has now because as you and others have pointed out WC either don't care or don't want to actually fix things and it will just keep circling the drain as it is, in more decreasing circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuntingYou Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 9 minutes ago, thestiffler said: I'm not sure why you're trying to Ad hominem me in a subtle fashion but I already stated this problem is a general issue where I am seeing the guys I watch turn off, quit sotf, and stop streaming it yes I'm affected but I'm a very small streamer in comparison to the ones who are leaving and stopping streaming because of it, but then you did register this account just to post on this post and keep referring to things that happened in my stream that you "believe" I've done or happened so eh go figure. The survivor league is a stifling presence in this game, its all encompassing and came way to early in the games lifespan when it was still a pretty immature to throw this vast a sum of money at, getting rid of it might be the only chance it has now because as you and others have pointed out WC either don't care or don't want to actually fix things and it will just keep circling the drain as it is, in more decreasing circles. I don't know how I am " trying to Ad hominem you" I merely stated you were playing on an alt and the problem wasn't related to the survivor league but I'm interested to hear what you think exactly will happen if the survivor league is removed and how it would result in the game improving, from my perspective removing the league would simply kill the league and I love the game and wouldn't want that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestiffler Posted November 3, 2016 Author Share Posted November 3, 2016 6 minutes ago, HuntingYou said: I don't know how I am " trying to Ad hominem you" I merely stated you were playing on an alt and the problem wasn't related to the survivor league but I'm interested to hear what you think exactly will happen if the survivor league is removed and how it would result in the game improving. I swapped to alt after losing 30 ELO, I mean at 1820 30 ELO is quite a lot its at least 7-8 hours of WINS to get back. its doable and there is enough time to do it but again one of the points I made was the absolute crushing penalty for an early death or loss. Survivor league causes much of this behaviour it forces people to focus on only winning, it seems to create a sub culture of people within the community who only want to cost people ELO or stop them gaining it as well, take away the need to grind ELO to get into money tournaments and you will take away a lot of the motivation for being dirt bags, weather that be endless teaming or sniping. The numbers might well go down but they already are every single month http://steamcharts.com/app/407530 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davnell Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 A lot of the above is TL;DR to me tbh, I have read/discussed all of these things 100 times with 90% of the community already. One thing I will say, is that stream sniping is not really WC's problem, it's sad, but it's true. The issue with SotF is the benefits gained by sniping. Broken record moment "It's easier to keep people off of the board, than to grind onto it" As a lot of people have already said, WC need to take the player hit and scrap the league. Keep the point system, or A point system, heck give people skins and stuff (in a n easier to achieve manner), but please get rid of this crappy league system. No new players are coming, the league structure ensures that they are killed early. Most of the old players are leaving or turning to "dirty" tactics, just to make sure they qualify. You have so many people out here who want to grow the game, but you won't let us help. Pretty sure I read/heard something about the resource allocation from the WC team, which would be required, but in that case just scrap all prize schemes for now? Run the game for people to try and have fun with? It's not like the prize games are attracting players anyway! Run an invitational or 2, on your own terms? Do anything to try to stop this game mode dying for good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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